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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

Netanyahu and Hamas

219 replies

AdamRyan · 04/12/2023 16:47

I am very confused about the Israel/Gaza situation and find it almost impossible to read about it without getting tangled up in how people who support the citizens of Gaza are pro hamas/anti semitic etc.

But I've heard from a few places now that Netanyahu actually encouraged Hamas so as to divide Gaza and the West Bank. I'm surprised there hasn't been more made of this as surely this means he has a lot of blood on his hands.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/

Help me understand please.

OP posts:
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Original poster
AdamRyan · 05/12/2023 10:53

Children in the UK are taught about bias and persuasive texts and propaganda, make sure facts are triple checked.

Yes, mainly I try to reinforce this. But in the case of this war it seems to be almost impossible to fact check.

For me it goes a bit like:

Tens of thousands of Palestinians dead,mainly children? Reported by Hamas, who have falsified evidence in the past, so may not be accurate

Israeli women raped and murdered? Reported by eyewitnesses, have falsified evidence in the past, so may not be accurate

Say either of those things and you will be called islamophobic or antisemitic. Its impossible to get a balanced view, meanwhile there are just horrendously brutal videos doing the rounds.

I'm trying with my children to move off the "did they/didn't they" brutality and more into the politics and motivations on both sides but it is so hard when the debate is so heated

OP posts:
Depdawg · 05/12/2023 10:53

AdamRyan · 05/12/2023 10:47

Yes
I feel like any criticism of Netanyahu and by implication the Israeli government will be seen as antisemitic but to me he does seem somewhat culpable for this by contributing to Hamas being in power in Gaza. Especially if he has been turning a blind eye to money coming in.
On the other hand, maybe Hamas would have been there regardless of who was in power.

How many times do people say that criticising Israel is seen as antisemitic? It's not like that at all.
It's the way posts are phrased and always always minimising what Hamas did.
There is also often a lack of thought for
The victims of Hamas and their families, who live elsewhere and face antisemitism, increasingly so since 7/11. They've done bugger all wrong, as have many of the Palestinian civilians.

Original poster
AdamRyan · 05/12/2023 10:47

Yes
I feel like any criticism of Netanyahu and by implication the Israeli government will be seen as antisemitic but to me he does seem somewhat culpable for this by contributing to Hamas being in power in Gaza. Especially if he has been turning a blind eye to money coming in.
On the other hand, maybe Hamas would have been there regardless of who was in power.

OP posts:
Itisyourturntowashthebath · 05/12/2023 10:46

ItsRainingTacos79 · 05/12/2023 10:39

@AdamRyan in a similar boat. I have a 10 year old who watches/reads the news and has a lot of questions. Luckily he doesn't have access to social media but it's incredibly hard to get a balanced view. Israeli government action and the bloodshed is 'dwarfing' the severity of Hamas atrocities visually across the media so presenting a 'balanced' view is incredibly difficult.

Oh yes, plus the levels of misinformation and propaganda by both sides is mind blowing.

Children in the UK are taught about bias and persuasive texts and propaganda, make sure facts are triple checked.

ItsRainingTacos79 · 05/12/2023 10:39

@AdamRyan in a similar boat. I have a 10 year old who watches/reads the news and has a lot of questions. Luckily he doesn't have access to social media but it's incredibly hard to get a balanced view. Israeli government action and the bloodshed is 'dwarfing' the severity of Hamas atrocities visually across the media so presenting a 'balanced' view is incredibly difficult.

Limeandsodaontherocks · 05/12/2023 10:39

AdamRyan · 05/12/2023 10:11

Well where else am I meant to post?
It's just impossible to discuss in real life, and on here, because every single question is jumped on as bad faith/antisemitic etc etc. Then there is also loads of commentary about different media agendas and press sources that aren't to be trusted.

I have teenagers who get their (usually mis)information from tiktok and try to discuss it with me and I don't know what to say or where to direct them to find facts.

Then I post on here in the hope I'll get something more balanced and I get that response. Thanks.

It is a perfectly reasonable question to ask but I don’t think you’ll get a much more balanced response than TikTok on here. The most vocal posters on this issue are generally very one sided and quite aggressive towards anyone who questions their view. It’s not uncommon to see posters called “vile” or “fascist” for quite trivial things .

paladium · 05/12/2023 10:17

@AdamRyan there's no shame in posting. Unfortunately some posters don't like certain topics being discussed, but if they don't agree with the original post they can always challenge this. Please don't stop asking questions if you have them. It always helps to hear both sides of a debate.

Original poster
AdamRyan · 05/12/2023 10:11

Well where else am I meant to post?
It's just impossible to discuss in real life, and on here, because every single question is jumped on as bad faith/antisemitic etc etc. Then there is also loads of commentary about different media agendas and press sources that aren't to be trusted.

I have teenagers who get their (usually mis)information from tiktok and try to discuss it with me and I don't know what to say or where to direct them to find facts.

Then I post on here in the hope I'll get something more balanced and I get that response. Thanks.

OP posts:
Depdawg · 05/12/2023 09:14

AdamRyan · 04/12/2023 19:17

I'm not trying to be goady. I'm trying to formulate my own opinion on this and it's really hard.
On one hand there is the absolute atrocity of the terrorism against Israel on 7th October
On the other are all the videos and reporting showing Gaza essentially being razed to the ground with a population who appear to be trapped

Any question about what's happening in Gaza is met with responses about anti semitism

But a lot of the pro Palestinian responses miss out how awful what happened in Israel is.

I'm picking my way through that and then I see this about Netanyahu which basically makes me think he has the blood of innocent Israelis and Gazans on his hands and I can't see how this can end if he's in power. I don't understand why there hasn't been more moves against him.

But I don't fully understand it so I thought I'd ask.

Show quote history

If you knew the posting history of this board, you would understand my doubt.

Museum10661 · 04/12/2023 23:11

AdamRyan · 04/12/2023 16:47

I am very confused about the Israel/Gaza situation and find it almost impossible to read about it without getting tangled up in how people who support the citizens of Gaza are pro hamas/anti semitic etc.

But I've heard from a few places now that Netanyahu actually encouraged Hamas so as to divide Gaza and the West Bank. I'm surprised there hasn't been more made of this as surely this means he has a lot of blood on his hands.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/

Help me understand please.

at a guess and its just that, sometimes in war or in politics etc its said the enemy of my enemy is my friend,

Pav123 · 04/12/2023 22:34

Well said DuckBee

DuckBee · 04/12/2023 22:29

It's a story as old as time - sadam hussein. Al queda etc. Basically western govts support them for their means then don't like it when they are not in control anymore and then take steps to bring them down.

stomachameleon · 04/12/2023 22:15

@SirBobblysock I agree in my experience there is very much disquiet in Israel. Rumblings. Whether this materialises into anything at the moment remains to be seen.

I will be happy to see the back of the far right. There are better and more peaceful bed fellows than them.

SirBobblysock · 04/12/2023 21:58

@EasterIssland Hopefully not for long - there seems to be very strong feelings that he should go from within Israel now

EasterIssland · 04/12/2023 21:33

SirBobblysock · 04/12/2023 21:31

But not as a majority - he needed to make unholy alliances with other far right groups. Likud in the last survey has support from 4% of the population.

Show quote history

Still he’s the one preferred by Israel citizens. Not enough to have government but enough to be president and make the decisions.

SirBobblysock · 04/12/2023 21:31

Itisyourturntowashthebath · 04/12/2023 21:24

The more I learn about Netanyahu the more it becomes apparent that he’s a real piece of work.

I mean even the pro-Israelis on here won’t defend him.

But he has been elected prime minister repeatedly since 1996.

But not as a majority - he needed to make unholy alliances with other far right groups. Likud in the last survey has support from 4% of the population.

Itisyourturntowashthebath · 04/12/2023 21:24

The more I learn about Netanyahu the more it becomes apparent that he’s a real piece of work.

I mean even the pro-Israelis on here won’t defend him.

But he has been elected prime minister repeatedly since 1996.

Anotherdayanotherdiet · 04/12/2023 21:19

That longer article also makes Netanyahu sound similar to putin

The more I learn about Netanyahu the more it becomes apparent that he’s a real piece of work.

I mean even the pro-Israelis on here won’t defend him.

Original poster
AdamRyan · 04/12/2023 21:11

Anotherdayanotherdiet · 04/12/2023 20:35

These articles may be of interest OP.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/21/the-netanyahu-doctrine-how-israels-longest-serving-leader-reshaped-the-country-in-his-image

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/

The long read is interesting, I'm quite sceptical of the Guardian on this topic as they seem morecritical of Israel
Reading that, it feels as if Hamas and Likud are locked into some kind of symbiotic relationship, neither can survive without the other. But the Israelis and Gazans are paying the price.
That longer article also makes Netanyahu sound similar to putin 😱

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Original poster
AdamRyan · 04/12/2023 20:59

Happyvalleyfan · 04/12/2023 20:03

There was also WikiLeak about a diplomatic exchange between then Israeli Director of Military Intelligence, Major General Amos Yadlin, and US Ambassador to Israel Richard Jones-

Yaldin is quoted as saying in a cable

“Israel would be happy if Hamas took over Gaza because the IDF could then deal with Gaza as a hostile state.” »

https://m.jpost.com/defense/yadlin-israel-would-be-happy-if-hamas-takes-over-gaza

That's interesting, thank you

OP posts:
Original poster
AdamRyan · 04/12/2023 20:57

Anotherdayanotherdiet · 04/12/2023 20:35

These articles may be of interest OP.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/21/the-netanyahu-doctrine-how-israels-longest-serving-leader-reshaped-the-country-in-his-image

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/

Second one is in my OP and one of the reasons I posted

OP posts:
Original poster
AdamRyan · 04/12/2023 20:57

stomachameleon · 04/12/2023 20:17

@AdamRyan is that a collective thing or just for this thread? Just curious?

In general, but I have noticed over the years it's got a bit harder to have a measured debate when people disagree. But one of the things that keeps me here is that there are a lot of clever people with diverse opinions.

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Toothyfruity · 04/12/2023 20:32

paladium · 04/12/2023 20:24

I'm curious to know why some posters are so upset by the question being asked, it's a fair question.

Truth hurts?

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