Page 5 | Netanyahu and Hamas

AdamRyan · 2023-12-04T16:47:47+00:00

I am very confused about the Israel/Gaza situation and find it almost impossible to read about it without getting tangled up in how people who support the citizens of Gaza are pro hamas/anti semitic etc. But I've heard from a few places now that Netanyahu actually encouraged Hamas so as to divide Gaza and the West Bank. I'm surprised there hasn't been more made of this as surely this means he has a lot of blood on his hands. [[https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/]] Help me understand please.

Toothyfruity · 08/12/2023 18:31

Wills · 08/12/2023 18:29

This has been a really interesting thread @AdamRyan and I've learnt loads but it still doesn't answer a question of mine. Why do we refer to Hamas and Palestinians when it's the Palestinians that have voted them in twice? People normally seem to talk about countries and their governments. Even in Northern Ireland we talk about the Irish government if anything or if stating politics then it might be Sinn Fien etc. If Palestinians have voted them into their ruling government why aren't we say Israel and Palestine?

There hasn't been a vote in 17 years and also there's been a blockade for practically that entire time so it doesn't function as a free state.

Also Hamas governs Gaza which is not the entirety of Palestine. The Palestinian Authority tries to govern in the Occupied West Bank.

EasterIssland · 08/12/2023 18:30

Wills · 08/12/2023 18:29

This has been a really interesting thread @AdamRyan and I've learnt loads but it still doesn't answer a question of mine. Why do we refer to Hamas and Palestinians when it's the Palestinians that have voted them in twice? People normally seem to talk about countries and their governments. Even in Northern Ireland we talk about the Irish government if anything or if stating politics then it might be Sinn Fien etc. If Palestinians have voted them into their ruling government why aren't we say Israel and Palestine?

How many of those alive voted have voted them? And when did they vote them?

Wills · 08/12/2023 18:29

This has been a really interesting thread @AdamRyan and I've learnt loads but it still doesn't answer a question of mine. Why do we refer to Hamas and Palestinians when it's the Palestinians that have voted them in twice? People normally seem to talk about countries and their governments. Even in Northern Ireland we talk about the Irish government if anything or if stating politics then it might be Sinn Fien etc. If Palestinians have voted them into their ruling government why aren't we say Israel and Palestine?

Happyvalleyfan · 07/12/2023 19:02

OuiOuiKitty · 07/12/2023 07:57

Sorry? Where did I justify 7/10? I just said that I disagree with using 'devasting force' against genociders. Not wanting Israel blown to bits is hardly controversial.

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Sorry @OuiOuiKitty - this was in reference to @cauliflowerwaterfall

When they said:
The rest of the world may have its eyes shut, but Israel sees Hamas for exactly what they are.
Tagged wrong quote

Original poster

AdamRyan · 07/12/2023 11:43

HeidiInTheBigCity · 06/12/2023 22:25

Then, I suppose, you are the bigger person than me!

Cheers!

I think your posts on this thread have been very interesting, thank you

OP posts:

Original poster

AdamRyan · 07/12/2023 11:35

Exactly rafa

OP posts:

RafaistheKingofClay · 07/12/2023 09:13

cauliflowerwaterfall · 07/12/2023 07:26

Sorry did you think “never again” and “punishment” meant a strongly worded letter? A tut and a shake of the head? A long sigh and a roll of the eyes?

Or did you think “never again” meant everyone saying “ok I won’t personally do a genocide but the rest of you Do You.”

No. “Never again” means genocide must be responded to with enough devastating force to punish the perpetrators such that they can never and will never do it again.

The rest of the world may have its eyes shut, but Israel sees Hamas for exactly what they are.

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Nor did never again mean unless you are Israel in which case go ahead.

Israel’s action in Gaza is not going to wipe out Hamas. Even if it wipes out Palestinians in Gaza it stands no chance of working. Best case scenario Gaza is laid to waste and Hamas continues. Worst case pretty much the same but Israel have gone a long way to actively recruiting huge swathes of people to Hamas or whatever may follow with a genuine grievance against the Israeli government.

Original poster

AdamRyan · 07/12/2023 08:56

OuiOuiKitty · 07/12/2023 07:55

Of course I'm not being facetious. Israeli is explicitly genocidal and actively genocidal. Israel have stated their aims and are actively starving over 2 million people of water, food and aid. Destroying health care facilities and killing medics. Even a fool wouldn't believe that a country actively starving over 2million people and removing all healthcare isn't trying to kill those people. What on earth else could it possibly be? Everybody knows that people need food and water to survive and everybody knows what happens when you remove that

Edited

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Yes. To me it appears to be a siege and there are specific rules that Israel are not complying with
https://www.chathamhouse.org/2019/06/sieges-law-and-protecting-civilians-0/iii-rules-international-humanitarian-law-particularly

Belligerents must do everything feasible to verify that objectives against which they are directing attacks are neither civilians nor civilian objects and are not subject to special protection...in case of doubt as to whether a person is a civilian, that person must be considered a civilian. Similarly, in case of doubt as to whether an object normally dedicated to civilian purposes has become a military objective, it must be assumed that it has not.

It's also illegal to starve civilians under siege.

OP posts:

OuiOuiKitty · 07/12/2023 07:57

Happyvalleyfan · 07/12/2023 07:53

The rest of the world does not have its eyes shut. It sees what happens on 7/10 and it sees what is happening now in Gaza.

If there is any merit in International law, then both Hamas and Netanyahu and his right wing cronies will have their time in the ICC.

Justifying the massacre of innocents in response to 7/10 is frankly abhorrent.

I hope the world doesn’t forget and if our generation can’t change the status quo, the future ones will.

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Sorry? Where did I justify 7/10? I just said that I disagree with using 'devasting force' against genociders. Not wanting Israel blown to bits is hardly controversial.

OuiOuiKitty · 07/12/2023 07:55

cauliflowerwaterfall · 07/12/2023 07:46

Not sure if you’re being facetious but the biggest mass-murder of Jews since the Holocaust happened 2 months ago so please don’t be sarcastic.

Hamas is explicitly genocidal. They are actively genocidal. To deny it or to try and DARVO the situation is genocide-denial.

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Of course I'm not being facetious. Israeli is explicitly genocidal and actively genocidal. Israel have stated their aims and are actively starving over 2 million people of water, food and aid. Destroying health care facilities and killing medics. Even a fool wouldn't believe that a country actively starving over 2million people and removing all healthcare isn't trying to kill those people. What on earth else could it possibly be? Everybody knows that people need food and water to survive and everybody knows what happens when you remove that

Happyvalleyfan · 07/12/2023 07:53

OuiOuiKitty · 07/12/2023 07:31

I don't think using 'devasting force' against Israel is the answer to this tbh. Killing more innocent people in response to a bonkers government isn't the way forward. Of course Netanyahu and his cronies need to be held responsible but I'd hope we are all civilised to do that without 'devasting force' being used against Israeli civillians.

Show quote history

The rest of the world does not have its eyes shut. It sees what happens on 7/10 and it sees what is happening now in Gaza.

If there is any merit in International law, then both Hamas and Netanyahu and his right wing cronies will have their time in the ICC.

Justifying the massacre of innocents in response to 7/10 is frankly abhorrent.

I hope the world doesn’t forget and if our generation can’t change the status quo, the future ones will.

cauliflowerwaterfall · 07/12/2023 07:46

OuiOuiKitty · 07/12/2023 07:31

I don't think using 'devasting force' against Israel is the answer to this tbh. Killing more innocent people in response to a bonkers government isn't the way forward. Of course Netanyahu and his cronies need to be held responsible but I'd hope we are all civilised to do that without 'devasting force' being used against Israeli civillians.

Show quote history

Not sure if you’re being facetious but the biggest mass-murder of Jews since the Holocaust happened 2 months ago so please don’t be sarcastic.

Hamas is explicitly genocidal. They are actively genocidal. To deny it or to try and DARVO the situation is genocide-denial.

OuiOuiKitty · 07/12/2023 07:31

cauliflowerwaterfall · 07/12/2023 07:26

Sorry did you think “never again” and “punishment” meant a strongly worded letter? A tut and a shake of the head? A long sigh and a roll of the eyes?

Or did you think “never again” meant everyone saying “ok I won’t personally do a genocide but the rest of you Do You.”

No. “Never again” means genocide must be responded to with enough devastating force to punish the perpetrators such that they can never and will never do it again.

The rest of the world may have its eyes shut, but Israel sees Hamas for exactly what they are.

Show quote history

I don't think using 'devasting force' against Israel is the answer to this tbh. Killing more innocent people in response to a bonkers government isn't the way forward. Of course Netanyahu and his cronies need to be held responsible but I'd hope we are all civilised to do that without 'devasting force' being used against Israeli civillians.

cauliflowerwaterfall · 07/12/2023 07:26

Happyvalleyfan · 06/12/2023 23:42

“On top of that, under the genocide convention Israel has a legal obligation to use devastating force against Hamas as a punishment for the genocide of October 7th.”

Yeah right - which genocide convention is that?
Certainly not the UN one which most of the world has signed upto. Perhaps that’s why Israel can’t understand why most people think THEY are the ones committing genocide.

Show quote history

Sorry did you think “never again” and “punishment” meant a strongly worded letter? A tut and a shake of the head? A long sigh and a roll of the eyes?

Or did you think “never again” meant everyone saying “ok I won’t personally do a genocide but the rest of you Do You.”

No. “Never again” means genocide must be responded to with enough devastating force to punish the perpetrators such that they can never and will never do it again.

The rest of the world may have its eyes shut, but Israel sees Hamas for exactly what they are.

cauliflowerwaterfall · 07/12/2023 07:21

Dulra · 06/12/2023 21:50

The threat to Israel is existential: Hamas wants them all dead. Hamas proved they can do it, will do it, and intend to do it again and again.

What Hamas want and what they can do are two very different things. Hamas do not have the fire power or the manpower to kill all of Israel but Israel certainly do to kill all of Palestine.

On top of that, under the genocide convention Israel has a legal obligation to use devastating force against Hamas as a punishment for the genocide of October 7th.

As horrific as the attacks on October 7th were it was not genocide so the genocide convention does not apply here

Are you kidding me? Hamas murdered, r—ped, tortured, shot, dismembered, displaced thousands of Israelis in a matter of a couple of hours! Hours! And you want them to have more free hours. Hamas has plenty of firepower - rockets are still falling on Israel, not that anyone cares.

Happyvalleyfan · 06/12/2023 23:42

cauliflowerwaterfall · 06/12/2023 21:41

Proportionality in international law is proportionality to the threat not to what has already happened (although it has to factor in what has happened to assess the threat). Proportionality isn’t about numbers, otherwise it would mean Israelis should go out and r—e exactly the same number of women & children and behead exactly the same number of civilians and kidnap exactly the same number of toddlers and shoot exactly the same number of children in front of exactly the same number of parents - that really would be retaliation - proportionality means means Israel should use the minimum level of force that is required compared against the threat. The threat to Israel is existential: Hamas wants them all dead. Hamas proved they can do it, will do it, and intend to do it again and again. Proportionality is comparing Israel’s actions to what Hamas is likely to do if Israel does nothing. On top of that, under the genocide convention Israel has a legal obligation to use devastating force against Hamas as a punishment for the genocide of October 7th.

“On top of that, under the genocide convention Israel has a legal obligation to use devastating force against Hamas as a punishment for the genocide of October 7th.”

Yeah right - which genocide convention is that?
Certainly not the UN one which most of the world has signed upto. Perhaps that’s why Israel can’t understand why most people think THEY are the ones committing genocide.

RafaistheKingofClay · 06/12/2023 23:41

You asked about proportionate not acceptable. In an ideal world there would be no innocent casualties. But this is a war. That isn’t an excuse for not minimising the casualties where you can though.

I didn’t suggest they lived in Hamas neighbourhoods. Israel has very good intelligence and a high tech military. It almost certainly has the capability to take out Hamas operatives with far more precision and fewer civilian casualties than it currently is. There is no need for them to be flattening large areas with bombs that will do the most amount of damage over the largest area possible. They know how densely populated Gaza is. It is a deliberate choice to be killing this many civilians and has little to do with Hamas using civilians as shields despite what Israeli government propaganda might say.

stomachameleon · 06/12/2023 23:00

@RafaistheKingofClay obviously they don't live in Hamas neighbourhoods though as they are entrenched with the general population.
So some death... Hamas operative, wife, kids and neighbours is acceptable?

RafaistheKingofClay · 06/12/2023 22:52

The change of weapons as suggested by the US would be a good start. The ones being used at the moment are inappropriate for densely populated areas and cause huge damage to civilians living nearby.

For that matter, if they are going to bomb residences, they could go back to pinpointing the exact property a Hamas operative lives in before targeting them. At least that way you could probably only kill them and their immediate family / close neighbour and not scores of people in the local area.

stomachameleon · 06/12/2023 22:37

I just wonder what a proportional response looks like to you? Not a list what's wrong but what would be right.

RafaistheKingofClay · 06/12/2023 22:35

I think when you’ve got to the point where even the US have been heavily hinting for weeks that the response isn’t proportional and are suggesting you use more reasonable weapons to hit your targets you are probably in a losing battle on whether you are acting within international law. Some of the utterances from members of the right wing of the Israeli government haven’t exactly helped.

They have every right to go after Hamas after 7th Oct but I’d question whether that is the only thing they are doing because it doesn’t look like it and it seems there are very few people on the international stage who believe it either. And in the mean time innocent women and children on both sides get abandoned by everyone.

HeidiInTheBigCity · 06/12/2023 22:25

Then, I suppose, you are the bigger person than me!

Cheers!

PeasfullPerson · 06/12/2023 22:10

HeidiInTheBigCity · 06/12/2023 22:07

Like ... LOLWUT... also WTAF?!? (to quote the so-called internet).

No, there is, literally, NO international convention that states "you go right ahead and starve out, thirst out, bomb into oblivion, displace, and downright try to eradicate people" under the "genocide convention".

You must be on the "happy cocktail" that the Israeli government claims released hostages were on.

This is some seriously "fucked up" level of shit!

Also, just so as to get "strictly formal" about it: while your claims would be wrong even then, even then: someone would have needed to invoke the genocide convention for your claims to hold any water. Nobody has done this ... regrettably! Someone should have, arguably! But, no, not in the direction you would have liked this one to go!

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I really had to stop myself from writing something like this.

PeasfullPerson · 06/12/2023 22:09

cauliflowerwaterfall · 06/12/2023 21:41

Proportionality in international law is proportionality to the threat not to what has already happened (although it has to factor in what has happened to assess the threat). Proportionality isn’t about numbers, otherwise it would mean Israelis should go out and r—e exactly the same number of women & children and behead exactly the same number of civilians and kidnap exactly the same number of toddlers and shoot exactly the same number of children in front of exactly the same number of parents - that really would be retaliation - proportionality means means Israel should use the minimum level of force that is required compared against the threat. The threat to Israel is existential: Hamas wants them all dead. Hamas proved they can do it, will do it, and intend to do it again and again. Proportionality is comparing Israel’s actions to what Hamas is likely to do if Israel does nothing. On top of that, under the genocide convention Israel has a legal obligation to use devastating force against Hamas as a punishment for the genocide of October 7th.

Numbers are definitely taken into account when considering whether a response is proportionate, but not in the way you have (perhaps purposefully?) framed it here. I don’t think I’ve seen anyone on this board post anything as dim as assuming it’s about ensuring even numbers of civilians on each side are killed! Being proportionate is about dealing with the threat in a way that causes the least overall harm.

HeidiInTheBigCity · 06/12/2023 22:07

Dulra · 06/12/2023 21:50

The threat to Israel is existential: Hamas wants them all dead. Hamas proved they can do it, will do it, and intend to do it again and again.

What Hamas want and what they can do are two very different things. Hamas do not have the fire power or the manpower to kill all of Israel but Israel certainly do to kill all of Palestine.

On top of that, under the genocide convention Israel has a legal obligation to use devastating force against Hamas as a punishment for the genocide of October 7th.

As horrific as the attacks on October 7th were it was not genocide so the genocide convention does not apply here

Like ... LOLWUT... also WTAF?!? (to quote the so-called internet).

No, there is, literally, NO international convention that states "you go right ahead and starve out, thirst out, bomb into oblivion, displace, and downright try to eradicate people" under the "genocide convention".

You must be on the "happy cocktail" that the Israeli government claims released hostages were on.

This is some seriously "fucked up" level of shit!

Also, just so as to get "strictly formal" about it: while your claims would be wrong even then, even then: someone would have needed to invoke the genocide convention for your claims to hold any water. Nobody has done this ... regrettably! Someone should have, arguably! But, no, not in the direction you would have liked this one to go!