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Conflict in the Middle East

Why Can't Gazans Leave?

960 replies

miniaturepixieonacid · 04/12/2023 13:25

There is probably a very simple answer to this that I missed in early news reports.

It's so awful watching News Feeds that essentially seem to say that Gazans are having to move around in a cat and mouse game with the IDF to avoid bombs but have nowhere left to go.

I am very aware that war has casualties and other countries are at war. I am not necessarily saying that IDF should stop fighting.

But this war is different in that all civilians seem to be trapped. Normally war creates refugees. Ukrainians, Afghans, Syrians - they were able to get out. Not all, I know, but movement was an option and it kept civilian casualties down. Why can't Gazans leave Gaza?

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Parkingt111 · 24/12/2023 13:38

I recently went to a event which was to raise awareness about what is happening in Gaza. There was a huge long banner that took up the space of almost the whole wall. In tiny writing it had the name of all the martyrs recorded up to that time
It included
• full name
• Age
• ID number

There was thousands of little children which included many who were under 5.
Seeing all the names in one place was certainly eye opening. From the surnames you could see that there were many members of entire families who have been killed.

Parkingt111 · 24/12/2023 13:30

@Efacsen as far as from what I read the death toll is for accounted deaths, which is why there is a great possibility that the actual figures are much much higher.

I think it was the Scottish PM Humza Yousuf who said his brother in law is a doctor in Gaza and at the start of the war, one of the things he frequently had to do was try and piece which body parts belong to which bodies. At this stage I'm not sure if they still do that as many of the deceased are now buries in mass graves.
Nobody knows how many have died under the rubble as they have not been able to retrieve all the bodies.

paladium · 24/12/2023 13:20

@Efacsen I have no idea. I wonder if they have to count on reports of missing people based on family reports or who lived there and tally it up somehow.

stormy4319trevor · 24/12/2023 13:19

@Efacsen I think there are quite a lot under rubble or unaccounted for.

Efacsen · 24/12/2023 13:17

I'm sorry to be gross but how can it be possible to retrieve bodies and count the dead when the bodies are so torn apart? Must have some ?unknown impact on mortality figures

stormy4319trevor · 24/12/2023 13:16

@Parkingt111 @Efacsen Thank you for posting about the use of these weapons. It really raises the question of why use something so destructive and harmful to anyone in the vicinity. Thank you both for faithfully posting on as well. It's hard not to be disheartened but important to still care, even though it's painful.

Parkingt111 · 24/12/2023 13:09

@efacsen yes I think I read similar from DR Ghassan too. When the IDF were asked about the use of these bombs they said these questions will be looked into after the war.
It is indefensible

Parkingt111 · 24/12/2023 13:06

@stomachameleon even with the war in Iraq the US only used this type of bomb ONCE, that is how destructive it is.

Israel has used it atleast 200 times! Even in safe zones. How can anyone defend this

Efacsen · 24/12/2023 13:04

@Parkingt111 please don't trouble yourself on my behalf - internet will hopefully recover at some point

I read somewhere that the flying shrapnel is the main cause of the many amputations

Parkingt111 · 24/12/2023 13:03

I found this explanation

In the first weeks of its war on Gaza, Israel used its most destructive bombs - the terrifying 2,000-pound, United States-made MK-84 ordnance - in areas it called "safe" for civilians and along evacuation routes it claimed were "safe" for innocent Gazans to travel to escape bombing, according to Artificial Intelligence-backed analysis of visual evidence by The New York Times and CNN.
These bombs, the Times said, were used at least 200 times and that "... even for those who followed every evacuation order, there was still no safety to be found".
Both publications cited military experts as saying bombs of that size "are almost never dropped... in densely-populated areas". And Gaza is one of the most densely populated in the world, with over two million people cramped into a 362 square kilometre strip of land. In fact, given the potential impact of such weapons, international humanitarian law prohibits indiscriminate bombing.
CNN quoted Marc Garlasco, a former war crimes investigator for the United Nations, as saying the ferocity of Tel Aviv's bombing in the first month of the war "had not been seen since Vietnam".

Parkingt111 · 24/12/2023 12:59

It's a 8 minute clip
Il see if I can find another link
It compares the different bombs
The MK-84 can impact up to 3000 feet of where it has dropped in all directions aswell as metal shrapnel that comes out on impact up to hundreds of feet away

I saw a video of a journalist who recorded the bombing that happened in the vicinity of the Kuwaiti hospital and was shocked to see him getting injured from shrapnel even though he was a considerable distance away from it but it makes sense now

Efacsen · 24/12/2023 12:53

@Parkingt111 article wouldn't download for me [slow internet] but presumably these are the sort of bunker-busting bombs used by the US in the empty Tora Bora mountains and here being used for tunnels underlying an urban area?

Totally gives a lie to the precision/targeted bombing nonsense

Parkingt111 · 24/12/2023 12:52

@stomachameleon have you seen the video I posted
Of the 2000 pound bomb that Israel is using in safe zones and civilian areas?

Whilst Hamas rockets are also dreadful they are nowhere near comparable to some of the most deadliest bombs that have been inflicted on civilians

stomachameleon · 24/12/2023 12:25

@Parkingt111 remember as well over 2000 rockets have misfired and landed in the Gaza Strip that were fired by Hamas and Islamic Jihad. I wonder what the casualty figures are like for them. Aid agencies conspicuously quiet about those rockets?

paladium · 24/12/2023 10:38

@Parkingt111 absolutely bloody awful. The poor civilians.

Parkingt111 · 23/12/2023 19:02

What can I say. Sisi is as corrupt as they come. Not suprised he has US backing either. And that the US far from condemning the forced evacuations and demolitions, actually praised it.

25milesfromhome · 23/12/2023 18:35

Some of the tunnels on the Egyptian side were also flooded with sewage, potentially environmentally catastrophic.

The Egyptian authorities also forcibly evicted thousands of people and demolished thousands of homes and other buildings to create an enlarged buffer zone along their border with Gaza. I don’t think displaced Gazans is a primary concern for them.
https://www.hrw.org/report/2015/09/22/look-another-homeland/forced-evictions-egypts-rafah

egypt cover image sinai

“Look for Another Homeland”

This 84-page report documents the government’s failure to provide adequately for residents during and after the evictions in North Sinai. Since July 2013, ostensibly to eliminate the threat of smuggling tunnels, the military has arbitrarily razed thous...

https://www.hrw.org/report/2015/09/22/look-another-homeland/forced-evictions-egypts-rafah

stomachameleon · 23/12/2023 18:33

@Efacsen I mean this kindly it is not a personal attack...

You are clearly an intelligent person so think about your bias when you write things like 'they did it more carefully than the IDF' there is no difference and it's concerning you think there this.

stomachameleon · 23/12/2023 18:28

@Efacsen why would they? Flooding is flooding surely? They did it repeatedly.

Gettingcolder · 23/12/2023 18:14

I'm not sure what you mean by more care - they have been very ruthless by all accounts and there have been more attempts to close the tunnels in later years too:
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/08/world/middleeast/as-egypt-floods-gaza-tunnels-smugglers-fear-an-end-to-their-trade.html

Efacsen · 23/12/2023 18:05

Gettingcolder · 23/12/2023 18:01

Yes I believe the Egyptians flooded the tunnels under Rafah with seawater back in 2015.

Egyptians doing so in Egypt would surely have taken more care than IDF in Gaza - or maybe that's how the environmental hazards came to be known?

Efacsen · 23/12/2023 18:02

@Parker231 good article thank you - very worrying, just another way to destroy Gaza and make it uninhabitable

Gettingcolder · 23/12/2023 18:01

Yes I believe the Egyptians flooded the tunnels under Rafah with seawater back in 2015.

stomachameleon · 23/12/2023 17:28

@Parker231 did Egypt commit genocide then? As haven't they already done it?