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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

Why Can't Gazans Leave?

960 replies

miniaturepixieonacid · 04/12/2023 13:25

There is probably a very simple answer to this that I missed in early news reports.

It's so awful watching News Feeds that essentially seem to say that Gazans are having to move around in a cat and mouse game with the IDF to avoid bombs but have nowhere left to go.

I am very aware that war has casualties and other countries are at war. I am not necessarily saying that IDF should stop fighting.

But this war is different in that all civilians seem to be trapped. Normally war creates refugees. Ukrainians, Afghans, Syrians - they were able to get out. Not all, I know, but movement was an option and it kept civilian casualties down. Why can't Gazans leave Gaza?

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Imtootired · 04/12/2023 16:13

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MercanDede · 04/12/2023 16:05

Toothyfruity · 04/12/2023 14:06

Israel has imposed a blockade on Gaza for the last 16 years. Gazans don't have free movement. They can't leave without permission from Israeli authorities. The only people who've left Gaza since the bombardment started are those with foreign passports and that was a big effort to make Israel allow that. Israel also bombed the Rafah crossing into Egypt in the early days of their bombardment of Gaza.

Egypt doesn't want to conflict spilling into Egypt and realistically it can't take over 2million refugees. It also doesn't want to be complicit in Israel's ethnic cleansing.

Palestinians are stateless. If they leave, Israel won't allow them to go back. We know this because this is what has always happened to Palestinians in the Occupied Territories.

Edited

Hear hear 🙌🙌

KatBurglar · 04/12/2023 16:04

I agree @RedToothBrush - the suffering on each side doesn't excuse the horrors they commit.

And that definition of ethnic cleansing almost applies, to my understanding, but not quite because they aren't letting them go anywhere.

The Israelis aren't letting Gazan's leave, they are keeping them contained in the same (tiny) area. It's wholesale destruction and it's a staggering amount of civilian deaths, yes, but if they were ethnically cleansing the area, they'd be trying to get rid of Gaza's, not keeping them trapped there.

Pefrsonally, the only outcomes I can see are losses for Israel, losses for the population of Gaza, and wins for Hamas. Hamas don't give a shit how many Gazans are killed, it's all collateral damage for them.

If the entire population of Israel and Palistine were wiped off the earth bar one person, and that person was Palestinian, Hamas would call that a victory.

backtowinter · 04/12/2023 15:57

Imtootired · 04/12/2023 15:34

I will ask you again for the third time. Were the people involved in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising terrorists. Please Google it before responding

Of course not. I can't imagine having a mindset that equate the Warsaw uprising with Hamas attacks

I'm hoping that i'm misunderstanding you, and you don't really mean that

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2023 15:55

Ethnic cleansing is a purposeful policy of "rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons from another ethnic group"
Bassiouni, M. Cherif (28 December 1994). "Final report of the United Nations Commission of Experts established pursuant to security council resolution 780 (1992), Annex IV – The policy of ethnic cleansing". United Nations. Archived from the original on 4 May 2012. Retrieved 11 July 2012.

Saying "The community were also moved for their own protection." isn't an excuse or justification. They've still been intimidated from an area due to being a Gazan by the Israelis.

Israel's actions meet the description above.

That DOES NOT take away from the barbarity and acts of terrorism that Hamas carried out on 7th October.

Neither has the moral high ground and neither should be treated as if they do.

NeonSoda · 04/12/2023 15:41

miniaturepixieonacid · 04/12/2023 13:25

There is probably a very simple answer to this that I missed in early news reports.

It's so awful watching News Feeds that essentially seem to say that Gazans are having to move around in a cat and mouse game with the IDF to avoid bombs but have nowhere left to go.

I am very aware that war has casualties and other countries are at war. I am not necessarily saying that IDF should stop fighting.

But this war is different in that all civilians seem to be trapped. Normally war creates refugees. Ukrainians, Afghans, Syrians - they were able to get out. Not all, I know, but movement was an option and it kept civilian casualties down. Why can't Gazans leave Gaza?

  1. There's a massive maximum security wall around the Gaza Strip. Israel controls most of the access and doesn't want the Palestinians to leave - yet.
  2. The access point into Egypt is also puppeteered by Israel, which is one of the reasons it's been so hard for foreign nationals to get out, and aid to get in.
  3. Egypt and the rest of the world (other than the US) basically want the Palestinians to stay in Gaza to prevent Israel from just moving in and declaring it Israeli territory. If the Palestinians all leave it's basically Israel's to take, and then we have a whole new world of pain, where we have half a nationality's citizens without any land to live on (and the West Bank isn't a viable option because Israel are also making it untenable for Palestinian's to live there).
Imtootired · 04/12/2023 15:39

What did you mean by a battle of good and evil then @SOBplus ? what about the Nakba? Who was good and evil back then?

Anotherdayanotherdiet · 04/12/2023 15:36

Well as I now doubt the intentions of this thread

If the question is legit

I don’t really understand statements like these. Are we not meant to discuss the very real problem of the Palestinians being trapped between Israel and Hamas? Do you really think people are talking about it to irritate you? You can’t think of any other reason?

SOBplus · 04/12/2023 15:35

Imtootired · 04/12/2023 14:58

So this is a battle between good and evil so all the Palestinan children who died deserved it? And Israel is good for bombing refugees and hospitals? You are brainwashed or just a horrible person

Not even remotely what I said, nice twist attempt though.🙄

tescocreditcard · 04/12/2023 15:35

Imtootired · 04/12/2023 15:34

I will ask you again for the third time. Were the people involved in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising terrorists. Please Google it before responding

No

Imtootired · 04/12/2023 15:34

Reply to @backtowinter above

Imtootired · 04/12/2023 15:34

I will ask you again for the third time. Were the people involved in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising terrorists. Please Google it before responding

backtowinter · 04/12/2023 15:33

Imtootired · 04/12/2023 15:32

Anyone justifying the killing of THOUSANDS of people who are CAPTIVE need to go and learn some history. This is how the holocaust happened. Dehumanising them “human animals” “terrorists” “mowing the lawn”. Criminalising any resistance and them blaming the killing on the victims

Do you not think Hamas are terrorists

Am I misunderstanding what you mean by resistance?

Imtootired · 04/12/2023 15:32

Anyone justifying the killing of THOUSANDS of people who are CAPTIVE need to go and learn some history. This is how the holocaust happened. Dehumanising them “human animals” “terrorists” “mowing the lawn”. Criminalising any resistance and them blaming the killing on the victims

Rouleur · 04/12/2023 15:29

miniaturepixieonacid · 04/12/2023 13:31

I know there's a border. I just thought other countries would let them across it into their countries in a war situation. Not necessarily to bear the full burden but then for the international community to help out. Maybe we wouldn't but we have taken refugees from other conflicts.

But if Hamas won't let them leave then that explains it. Thanks.

Just so hard to watch.

Which "other countries"? Do you mean Israel and Egypt? Israel are actively at war with Palestine so obviously won't let refugees cross the border, and Egypt won't either because they don't want to end up like Jordan or Lebanon, having to house millions of displaced Palestinians for decades.

It's a very different situation to Ukraine where refugees could easily flee to welcoming and supportive countries by simply hopping on a train.

Depdawg · 04/12/2023 15:29

Imtootired · 04/12/2023 15:28

@Depdawg your comments seem to be justifying it to me

No, I'm more open to reading history, to understand context.
Not being guided by emotion.

Imtootired · 04/12/2023 15:28

@Depdawg your comments seem to be justifying it to me

Anotherdayanotherdiet · 04/12/2023 15:28

Because the borders are closed. This is to prevent Hamas leaving and getting into Israel or Egypt but obviously this means all the Palestinians are locked into a war zone.

Imtootired · 04/12/2023 15:27

I ask you again @backtowinter were the people involved in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising evil? Look at the statistics of Palestinians killed over the years, the amount of food allowed into Gaza. People were rarely allowed out for cancer treatment. That is an open air prison aka a concentration camp

Depdawg · 04/12/2023 15:24

Imtootired · 04/12/2023 15:24

@Depdawg Israel does want to get rid of Palestinians and they are quite upfront about that. But they needed the justification or their western backers might have been put in an awkward position. Are you so ideological that you can justify THOUSANDS of children bombed to death? Have you lost your own humanity? The so called ideals of Israel are long gone, and never were. What we are seeing now is the ugly reality of brutal colonialism and an attempted genocide

I never said I justified it.

Imtootired · 04/12/2023 15:24

@Depdawg Israel does want to get rid of Palestinians and they are quite upfront about that. But they needed the justification or their western backers might have been put in an awkward position. Are you so ideological that you can justify THOUSANDS of children bombed to death? Have you lost your own humanity? The so called ideals of Israel are long gone, and never were. What we are seeing now is the ugly reality of brutal colonialism and an attempted genocide

backtowinter · 04/12/2023 15:20

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That's some reaching going on

What's wrong with what she said?

Surely you agree that Hamas are evil and need to be taken out?

Imtootired · 04/12/2023 15:18

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Depdawg · 04/12/2023 15:17

Itsaharddlife · 04/12/2023 15:13

Yeh just like they're bombing them for their own good. To save them from Hamas who is the occupier (I think that's what another posters mentioned anyways)

They told them to move from the north and now they're telling them to move from the south. Where are they supposed to go? You can stick to the view that this is supposedly necessary to eradicate hamas, but don't bullshit about it being for their protection. Its quite clear neither side is thinking about the poor people of Gaza.

Show quote history

Well as I now doubt the intentions of this thread, I'm not going to provide further fuel.
I will say one last thing: if Israel wanted civilians to perish, they could have made far easier and quicker work of it. Something isn't bullshit just because you
Don't believe it.

Itsaharddlife · 04/12/2023 15:13

Depdawg · 04/12/2023 15:04

I agree, although EC in this case can be open to somewhat interpretation. The community were also moved for their own protection.
The way some talk about it is reliving the holocaust.

Show quote history

Yeh just like they're bombing them for their own good. To save them from Hamas who is the occupier (I think that's what another posters mentioned anyways)

They told them to move from the north and now they're telling them to move from the south. Where are they supposed to go? You can stick to the view that this is supposedly necessary to eradicate hamas, but don't bullshit about it being for their protection. Its quite clear neither side is thinking about the poor people of Gaza.