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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

Why Can't Gazans Leave?

960 replies

miniaturepixieonacid · 04/12/2023 13:25

There is probably a very simple answer to this that I missed in early news reports.

It's so awful watching News Feeds that essentially seem to say that Gazans are having to move around in a cat and mouse game with the IDF to avoid bombs but have nowhere left to go.

I am very aware that war has casualties and other countries are at war. I am not necessarily saying that IDF should stop fighting.

But this war is different in that all civilians seem to be trapped. Normally war creates refugees. Ukrainians, Afghans, Syrians - they were able to get out. Not all, I know, but movement was an option and it kept civilian casualties down. Why can't Gazans leave Gaza?

OP posts:
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NotABeliever · 04/12/2023 18:51

miniaturepixieonacid · 04/12/2023 14:22

RedToothBrush The Egypt one is what I would have hoped. Obviously not into Israel. I know it's been mostly shut but that's what seems so inhumane to me. I know Egypt couldn't do everything but if the world leaders as a whole could just get people (who wanted to go) over the border where they aren't in imminent danger of being blown up and then work out how to help them so many lives could be saved.

I think it's the tiny size and being nearly surrounded by Israel that I'm not appreciating though. I thought there was a Lebanon border too but now see that's just Israel. My map Geography is woeful, I admit. I can name you every single country in the world and their capitals but I couldn't place more than a handful on a map. No spatial awareness or memory for shapes at all.

I've been wondering this too. Admitting the Palestinians would like to leave rather than be bombed, why are they not allowed to leave? I think the answer is that Israel doesn't care for them to allow them to leave through its borders and it doesn't want Egypt to do so either. Egypt would rather not have the problem anyway and why would they try extra hard at the expense of diplomacy with neighbouring Isreal.
So I think the bottom line is that Israel doesn't care how many Palestinians die.

upinaballoon · 04/12/2023 18:42

BeggyMitchell · 04/12/2023 18:34

EllaDisenchanted so true. I wonder sometimes if the latest generation don't fully comprehend this and find it so easy to jump on the latest bandwagon without ever understanding the nuances of the history.

@BeggyMitchell Well said. From what I heard or have seen about the Warsaw Uprising, if there are any comparisons to be made in my mind, it is that the way the Nazis behaved then was the same way that Hamas behaved on October 7th.

BeggyMitchell · 04/12/2023 18:34

EllaDisenchanted so true. I wonder sometimes if the latest generation don't fully comprehend this and find it so easy to jump on the latest bandwagon without ever understanding the nuances of the history.

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2023 18:31

tescocreditcard · 04/12/2023 18:13

"Compared to Gaza, there have been days where 1,000 were massacred in 24hrs."

And compared to Israel, where 1,300 were massacred in 6 hours.

Its not a sick competition.

Original poster
miniaturepixieonacid · 04/12/2023 18:29

Yes, I agree EllaDisenchanted - it is not okay to try and draw comparisons/false equivalence, argue about which ethnic and religious groups have worse trauma or try to hurt Jewish or Israeli people with minimising of historical events.

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Depdawg · 04/12/2023 18:20

EllaDisenchanted · 04/12/2023 17:59

I am heartsick at all the death and destruction and pain, on both sides, I’m still traumatised from October 7th, and I see no good outcomes right now, for any of us. I don’t have solutions or answers, and I’m completely emotionally exhausted. Recognizing the evil of Hamas, and mourning the devastation of Gaza and tragic loss of Palestinian lives , and grieving for my own Jewish people are not mutually incompatible, just painful.

But comments like yours are so far beyond the pale. Do you know the reality of the concentration camps? Have you really read survivors accounts? Because I have. Whether Israel are right or wrong to have very tight border controls with Gaza (which is independently run, not by Israel), and whether you believe it was a gorgeous thriving place or a poverty stricken disaster pre war (I don’t know what to believe, I’ve seen so many conflicting accounts) none of it, absolutely none of it, is anything like what Jewish people were forced to endure in the concentration camps. You are literally weaponising my people’s trauma against us.

and the Warsaw ghetto uprising? It was pretty much a suicide mission. They knew they were not getting out alive , and decided to go down fighting. To compare the Warsaw ghetto uprising , the desperate actions of a condemned people, to go down fighting and take a few nazis with them- to a group of terrorists who deliberately invaded, raped women and children, alive and dead , took hostages including babies and the elderly. who committed the most appalling barbarities, and took the greatest of pleasure in doing so? How dare you.

agree or disagree with Israel’s actions, but don’t you dare use my people’s agony as a stick to beat us with. You do the Palestinian people no favour when you do so. Language like this is the opposite of what will bring peace.

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((Hugs))

tescocreditcard · 04/12/2023 18:13

"Compared to Gaza, there have been days where 1,000 were massacred in 24hrs."

And compared to Israel, where 1,300 were massacred in 6 hours.

EllaDisenchanted · 04/12/2023 17:59

Imtootired · 04/12/2023 15:27

I ask you again @backtowinter were the people involved in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising evil? Look at the statistics of Palestinians killed over the years, the amount of food allowed into Gaza. People were rarely allowed out for cancer treatment. That is an open air prison aka a concentration camp

I am heartsick at all the death and destruction and pain, on both sides, I’m still traumatised from October 7th, and I see no good outcomes right now, for any of us. I don’t have solutions or answers, and I’m completely emotionally exhausted. Recognizing the evil of Hamas, and mourning the devastation of Gaza and tragic loss of Palestinian lives , and grieving for my own Jewish people are not mutually incompatible, just painful.

But comments like yours are so far beyond the pale. Do you know the reality of the concentration camps? Have you really read survivors accounts? Because I have. Whether Israel are right or wrong to have very tight border controls with Gaza (which is independently run, not by Israel), and whether you believe it was a gorgeous thriving place or a poverty stricken disaster pre war (I don’t know what to believe, I’ve seen so many conflicting accounts) none of it, absolutely none of it, is anything like what Jewish people were forced to endure in the concentration camps. You are literally weaponising my people’s trauma against us.

and the Warsaw ghetto uprising? It was pretty much a suicide mission. They knew they were not getting out alive , and decided to go down fighting. To compare the Warsaw ghetto uprising , the desperate actions of a condemned people, to go down fighting and take a few nazis with them- to a group of terrorists who deliberately invaded, raped women and children, alive and dead , took hostages including babies and the elderly. who committed the most appalling barbarities, and took the greatest of pleasure in doing so? How dare you.

agree or disagree with Israel’s actions, but don’t you dare use my people’s agony as a stick to beat us with. You do the Palestinian people no favour when you do so. Language like this is the opposite of what will bring peace.

Original poster
miniaturepixieonacid · 04/12/2023 17:46

nationallampoons - well, 1 million people isn't really that many if split across all the wealthy countries. But I was not considering their strong identity ties to Palestine and the fears that it would end up being forever. So, I guess there is nowhere for them to go, which is heartbreaking.

OP posts:
Depdawg · 04/12/2023 17:46

MissyB1 · 04/12/2023 17:23

Yes this. I’m amazed some people can’t comprehend this!

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Believe me, a lot of us are amazed at others' comprehension as well, or lack of it.

nationallampoons · 04/12/2023 17:24

Where could they go? Genuine question

MissyB1 · 04/12/2023 17:23

2x2x2 · 04/12/2023 17:05

I don’t understand when people say it’s difficult or there’s no solution. The solution is that Israel recognises that Palestinians have human rights and full autonomy over the pitiful land and sea they have access to. And if Israel can’t recognise that, and continue to kill, orphan and maim the Palestinians, then the whole world should be imposing sanctions. Israeli scholars should be shunned, Israeli films should be shunned, Israeli food in our supermarkets should be stopped. Any government committing humans rights atrocities like they are should be sanctioned.

Any human life that Israel allow to survive in Gaza will be hateful of them and prone to Hamas-like ideology. Who could blame them? They have bred a whole new level of hate and pain.

Yes this. I’m amazed some people can’t comprehend this!

Original poster
miniaturepixieonacid · 04/12/2023 17:19

But 2X2X2, what if doing that means that Hamas continue to attack the Israeli people? They want to get rid of all Jewish people from Palestine, don't they? I think your solution would be really sensible if the whole conflict hadn't started in the first place. But it did and now it can't just be ended. It's the cyclical, chicken and egg type nature of the conflict that makes it so complicated to see your way through and understand how things can change.

OP posts:
2x2x2 · 04/12/2023 17:18

@Depdawg history tells us that there are exceptional people who preach peaceful resistance - Gandhi and MLK, for example. The vast majority of oppressed people who have experienced extreme childhood trauma at the hands of oppressors will go on to be hateful and have the potential for radicalisation. I would not blame someone who at the age of 3 witnessed his mum, dad and brother’s murders, and then at a later attack had his legs blown off in a blast. I might be surprised that they were really hateful if they had access to the most incredible psychological therapy. I don’t think they have much of that in Gaza? This didn’t start on 17th October. The world has turned a blind eye to the treatment of Palestinians for years. It’s our dirty stain.

And the sick people who murdered the very innocent Israelis at the festival are not the innocent children and families currently being murdered in Gaza.

Depdawg · 04/12/2023 17:09

2x2x2 · 04/12/2023 17:05

I don’t understand when people say it’s difficult or there’s no solution. The solution is that Israel recognises that Palestinians have human rights and full autonomy over the pitiful land and sea they have access to. And if Israel can’t recognise that, and continue to kill, orphan and maim the Palestinians, then the whole world should be imposing sanctions. Israeli scholars should be shunned, Israeli films should be shunned, Israeli food in our supermarkets should be stopped. Any government committing humans rights atrocities like they are should be sanctioned.

Any human life that Israel allow to survive in Gaza will be hateful of them and prone to Hamas-like ideology. Who could blame them? They have bred a whole new level of hate and pain.

Well actually I will blame anybody, who has a "hamas-like ideology".
Do you not see the hypocrisy in your (ill selected) words?
Israel's people were slain in the most brutal manner.
They weren't exactly feeling great about it 🙄

2x2x2 · 04/12/2023 17:05

I don’t understand when people say it’s difficult or there’s no solution. The solution is that Israel recognises that Palestinians have human rights and full autonomy over the pitiful land and sea they have access to. And if Israel can’t recognise that, and continue to kill, orphan and maim the Palestinians, then the whole world should be imposing sanctions. Israeli scholars should be shunned, Israeli films should be shunned, Israeli food in our supermarkets should be stopped. Any government committing humans rights atrocities like they are should be sanctioned.

Any human life that Israel allow to survive in Gaza will be hateful of them and prone to Hamas-like ideology. Who could blame them? They have bred a whole new level of hate and pain.

backtowinter · 04/12/2023 17:03

Imtootired · 04/12/2023 16:31

@backtowinter I will never feel ashamed from a genocide defender. Shame on you

I'm not a genocide defender.

SOBplus · 04/12/2023 16:37

It's just so tragic all round.

I think anyone with a heart and soul intact can agree with that. It was a good question, I think people are just frustrated and taking it out on each other because there is no good solution.

MercanDede · 04/12/2023 16:36

Depdawg · 04/12/2023 15:17

Well as I now doubt the intentions of this thread, I'm not going to provide further fuel.
I will say one last thing: if Israel wanted civilians to perish, they could have made far easier and quicker work of it. Something isn't bullshit just because you
Don't believe it.

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Such comments implying massacring of civilians in Gaza isn’t occurring fast enough to indicate intent to hurt civilians is truly confusing. The numbers are independent from intent when you look at the definition of genocide anyway, but if you do link the two, as you have done, then it appears that the numbers would indicate some sort of intent or at the very least least criminal negligence or incompetence resulting in complete disregard for civilian lives.

During the 3 years of the Bosnian genocide, 38,000 civilians were massacred out of 2 million refugees, or just over 1,000 civilians per month. Compared to Gaza, there have been days where 1,000 were massacred in 24hrs.

Subtracting out the week of ceasefire, it’s around 10,000 civilians massacred per month in Gaza, best estimate.

Gazan civilians have been massacred around 10x faster than Bosnian civilians were in a known and proven genocide.

So the speed at which Gazan civilians are being blown to bits doesn’t indicate an absence of intent to ethnically cleanse or commit genocide.

Original poster
miniaturepixieonacid · 04/12/2023 16:33

That doesn't work though, its what we have now - (with liberties taken) a group (Palestinians) feeling displaced in a refugee center (Gaza) and trying to demand their grievances be addressed by the world and whose anger results in a terrorist group taking charge to force the issue and then a response to the terror. We can move it around like musical chairs but its not a solution and I'm not sure there is one

Yes, that actually makes a lot of sense, I can see that.

I know, it's not an easy answer and there's so much pain and 'right' on both sides (not Hamas, of course - Palestine and Israel). And I can understand that Egypt would be afraid of terrorists, I guess. But surely at least letting children, elderly people and injured/sick people out couldn't have hurt. More expensive to care for those demographics though, I guess.
Ugh, sorry, I was probably stupid to even ask. It's obviously massively difficult to get people out. It's just so tragic all round.

OP posts:
Depdawg · 04/12/2023 16:31

backtowinter · 04/12/2023 16:29

Shame on you

Really, shame on you

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There is a label for her, but I can't type it.

Imtootired · 04/12/2023 16:31

@backtowinter I will never feel ashamed from a genocide defender. Shame on you

backtowinter · 04/12/2023 16:29

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Shame on you

Really, shame on you

Imtootired · 04/12/2023 16:29

@Depdawg If you care to watch any videos you can see for yourself. They were all lucky to be alive after the bombardment from Israel. I knew you would pick up on that comment and completely ignore the point. What would you, someone who I’m sure could not cope for one week living in Gaza, advise them to do? Being kept in an open air prison for almost two decades? Bare in mind half the population are children and never voted for Hamas

Depdawg · 04/12/2023 16:21

Back to treating hostages well, now ffs