Why Can't Gazans Leave?

https://abcnews.go.com/International/hell-earth-israel-unrest-spotlights-dire-conditions-gaza/story?id=103829699

Gaza is poor - very poor.

@OkInSmallDoses this is very anachronistic and Jews have had a continuous presence on the Levant for millennia.

The Jews who moved there before & during WW2 (sadly a tiny number) were going there because it was under the British Mandate and therefore one of the few places on Earth safe from the Holocaust. Some even volunteered to serve in the British army and fought the Nazis. They were fleeing genocide, moving close to other Jews in safe, empty land not carrying out some weird religious colonial fantasy.

When you talk about refugees, most Israelis descended from refugees were descended from those expelled from MENA countries. When nearly a million Jews are forcibly displaced, nobody has a right to complain about who takes them in.

As for the Holocaust survivors you are talking of people who lost EVERYTHING: their homes, their families, their freedom. They lived in refugee camps for years which were not much better than where they had been supposedly liberated from. Only about 100k went to Israel, less than half.

All this is also kind of… academic? There are 9 million Israelis who are not going anywhere.

Perhaps you also find it laughable that foreigners can holiday in gaza yet the palestinians themselves can't return there nor can they leave gaza
Very funny

On another thread you said palesrinains have always refused peace deals. I've jjst explained how that's not entirely true and not one sided like you seem to think. You've not responded to any of that. Maybe you also know very little

@OkInSmallDoses a country that has had Jews in it same inception. No one has more right to be there.

@Itsaharddlife do you have many open air Prisons where people chose to holiday, has huge wealth and its own horse racing federation?

It's laughable. And shows how Little you actually know about that area....

Israel withdraw
Gaza scuppered the infrastructure.

The reason why Palestinians have not accepted the terms laid down by Israel in the many negotiations is because those terms are unreasonable.

The right to return was not granted to those forcibly evicted. Who in their right mind would accept such terms.

It is a testament to Israeli spin that Israel managed to unilaterally declare itself a state, take over a country, expel the local population but it is the Palestinians who are seen to be unreasonable for not accepting the crumbs that are thrown to them.

Not even all Israeli citizens are aware of the history behind their State.

Un resolution 242
The deal was for Arab countries to recognise Israel as a state. Egypt and Jordan accepted this.
Israel was to withdraw from occupied territories, and return to pre 1967 borders. It still has not done so!
Over the years Israeli settlements in occupied territories have only increased!

Oslo accords
Peace agreement between yesterday arafat and yitzhak Rabin.
The agreement was israel would gradually remove its military presence and leave the illegaly occupied territories. Both of these were not met. In fact over the next 5 years settlements increased!
Rabin was even assassinated by a right wing Israeli, who didn't want peace.

"At anti-government rallies, protesters carried placards showing a Photoshopped Rabin wearing Arafat’s distinctive keffiyeh, or in a Nazi uniform. Everywhere he was branded a traitor."
One of the right wing politicians who opposed the accord was Netanyahu.

Again camp David in 2000 - Israel wouldn't allow right of return to Palestinians who were forced out during the nakba. Both parties couldn't agree on borders.

Despite withdrawing from gaza they still continued a blockade. Gaza is an open air prison

https://waronwant.org/news-analysis/israeli-apartheid-factsheet

The UN and others don’t agree with you.

All of it is the British mandate. At the time Jews and Palestinians are scattered throughout (which is why it was so difficult to coherently divide the land in the first place).

But Jews and Palestinians are not mutually exclusive. There were Palestinian Jews, Muslims and Christians but Muslims were by far the largest percentage of the population.

Those Palestinians, regardless of their religion, are the ones who were there prior to the war and the ones with the strongest claim to the land. The Jewish refugees may have had a spiritual claim to the land but that’s not the same as physically living there and calling it your home.

And it was most certainly recognised as Palestine by the Zionists encouraging Jewish immigration there.

The British mandate means nothing. The Palestinians didn’t recognise the authority of the British colonial government nor the right of Britain to encourage Jewish immigration, nor the UN partition plan. It’s not really up to anyone to carve up the land, other than the people living there who are now mostly displaced by expulsions and village clearances by Israel.

Unless you are saying that Palestine was empty until the late 1800s and then flooded with immigrants from neighbouring Arab states? If so, what is your source?

I think there is confusion because the word “apartheid” gets bandied about a lot when in fact Israel is a multicultural society, even more so than the UK. Something like only 70-75% Israelis are Jewish. There are Israeli Arabs including Palestinians who have equal rights and even hold elected office or serve in the IDF! There are also Samaritans, Druze, Bedouin, Christians, etc. Israeli Jews themselves are also very diverse. “Israeli” means someone from the state of Israel, it’s not a synonym for Israeli Jews.

Sorry meant to be for @stomachameleon

Sorry. I don't follow - are you replying to someone else maybe?

@stormy4319trevor if it is not Palestine, they are not Palestinians.
But they are people that have been living on that land for generations, so they must be Israelis. So why don't they have the same rights as other Israelis?

Or does Israel have some sort of really weird apartheid going on?

The graphic is misleading and endlessly debunked, which you have probably already seen but for the benefit of others:

The first map is probably the most misleading. All of it is the British mandate. At the time Jews and Palestinians are scattered throughout (which is why it was so difficult to coherently divide the land in the first place). During this time, Jews & Arabs were trying to claim random bits of land by starting pop up settlements and basically getting around loopholes in British planning laws. Much of the land was not occupied by anyone. So there has never been a neat way to divide the land. There were also more than Jews and Palestinians living there. Druze, Samaritans, Christians, etc. The map author has cynically designated every inch of land without Jews as “Palestinian land” including empty land. At this time, “Palestine” is a region rather than a nation (and the Palestinian people as an ethnic group live across MENA they are not restricted to this particular land). It’s historically complicated as many designated Palestinian settlements were built on top of much older Jewish settlements.

That is the key to all this: two sides with a compelling & historic claim to the same land that do not want to share. As creepy and reminiscent of 1930s discourse it is when you hear activists basically obsessing over the Jewish ethnicity and stuff, I do understand the temptation to do so: it would all be so easy if one side was just wrong. But that’s not the case here. Jews really have lived there uninterrupted for millennia, the majority of Israelis really are MENA Jews, and European Jews really are indigenous to MENA.

As for the rest of the images: they are all just plans. The Palestinian Authorities do not agree with any of these maps: they want the whole thing shaded Palestine with no Jews. A single Palestinian state. So they have not lost land because they never agreed to that split in the first place.

And finally, the bit you never get told: WHY do the Palestinians keep getting offered less and less every time? The reason is, every time these plans were put to both parties, Israel has AGREED. Israel even agreed to the first plan which gave only 20% of the land to the 30% Jews. And every time Palestine refused and started a war of eradication. Israel won those wars, and as a result entered the next negotiations from a position of strength. The lesson? Don’t start wars.

If you want more info on why this graphic is misleading, I encourage you to look it up. There is a lot more detail than I can include here.

@paladium but we know that the tunnels are in existence and it's folk law discussing exactly what has been sent through them from Egypt.

Why has it not occurred to unwra to spend any of that aid on food or keeping its civilians. Or snuggle through food instead of weapons with which to cause Israel harm.

Unless I am missing something?

Once again with the land. It's not Palestinian. Historically.

https://alianzaporlasolidaridad.org/voluntariado/palestinians/

I mean this map shows quite clearly allocated Palestinian land, looks like Israel have been creeping into it rather a lot, doesn't it.

It’s not Palestinian land, some of it was disputed land but most of it is undisputed Israeli land. If you effectively cede your claim to some land that doesn’t mean your original claim was bogus, it means that whatever you’re getting in exchange (in this case: peace) is more important to you. Israel offered a very good deal that I very much doubt will ever be offered again. But there are alternate histories where peace was achieved 20, 50, 70 years ago.

Of course, it doesn't end with Gaza. The government is committed to taking the WB, and some of them to taking parts of Syria and Lebanon. That's a lot of refugees,

if it was just small items used to manufacture arms, can you explain why Israel felt it necessary to restrict calories to the minimum needed for life for Gazans?

The Israeli military made precise calculations of Gaza's daily calorie needs to avoid malnutrition during a blockade imposed on the Palestinian territory between 2007 and mid-2010, according to files the defence ministry released on Wednesday under a court order.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/17/israeli-military-calorie-limit-gaza

A poster from MN was saying how she visited Palestine and all the people are of a much shorter stature, due to malnutrition and to trauma. Appalling.

R*edToothBrush
*

'*falling over to welcome'

Are you on glue?

Are you not seeing the massive backlash starting to happen in the EU over Ukrainians (which was always sadly inevitable I fear)?*

No I have to say that I am not seeing a massive backlash. My guest is overwhelmed by the UKs welcome. There has been a phenomenal amount of socials, workshops and unlimited kindness .. frequent trips to both Germany and Poland confirms grumbling from the far right.. but the clues in the title - they are far right and failed to get sufficient seats to get elected in October .. so no. Considering the sheer numbers that Europe has welcomed ...

So my question remains. Why no one expecting anything of The Palestinians neighbours ?

Gaza has two doors. One to Israel and one to Egypt. Why can't the Arab world which has wealth beyond imagination, not organise a humanitarian lift of children along the lines of the WW2 Kindertransport ? Or even mothers and children .. ? From the Rafa crossing .. ? If they really cared.

Personally I believe they do not WANT to get involved . There is political capital to be made from Israel's appalling bombardment.. do not for one moment think that Hammas are surprised by the level of reprisals. They provoked and wanted it. They will never be in danger such are the network of tunnels and bunkers. They don't care about the civilians or Gaza, they are useful cannon fodder in an attempt to galvanise the Arab world into a war with Israel.

It isn't going to happen. All Hammas has achieved is the destruction of Gaza and some temporary bad PR for Israel and thousands of pointless deaths .

@cauliflowerwaterfall so Israel took 10 years to withdraw from Gaza, how many decades do you think it will take them to withdraw from other Palestinian land? After all this was a condition Israel agreed to in one of the peace deals.

Or an open air prison, for those who care about human rights.

Asylum should be given, particularly by the UK, which has a historic responsibility and is backing the invasion of Gaza, along with the US. I know they will never get back home, but I think we need to save some of them, particularly children. Richer countries can all take some. If we don't I believe they will all be killed outright or die from the conditions there. Most of us do not want to stand by and see a whole people wiped out, I thought there might be some hope of a ceasefire and somehow rebuilding Gaza, but I don't anymore. There will be no mercy from anywhere I feel now, and the only hope of saving some of them is refugee schemes. Maybe someone can persuade me I'm wrong.

All Israelis and the army withdrew from Gaza in 2005 in the interests of peace. The Israelis left their homes and farms. What happened - rockets still came over to Israel.