Page 31 | Why Can't Gazans Leave?

miniaturepixieonacid · 2023-12-04T13:25:02+00:00

There is probably a very simple answer to this that I missed in early news reports. It's so awful watching News Feeds that essentially seem to say that Gazans are having to move around in a cat and mouse game with the IDF to avoid bombs but have nowhere left to go. I am very aware that war has casualties and other countries are at war. I am not necessarily saying that IDF should stop fighting. But this war is different in that all civilians seem to be trapped. Normally war creates refugees. Ukrainians, Afghans, Syrians - they were able to get out. Not all, I know, but movement was an option and it kept civilian casualties down. Why can't Gazans leave Gaza?

paladium · 05/12/2023 09:25

@ElevenSeven yes I suppose it makes sense to smear an organisation who are calling out Israel's war crimes if they don't want them highlighted.

I'd argue the attempted smearing just gives the organisations more credence in most people's eyes. A bit like the Streisand effect.

At least they are actually calling out the war crimes as they see it, unlike US, UK and some other Western countries.

ElevenSeven · 05/12/2023 09:22

United Nations, Amnesty, Human Rights watch

I personally consider all of these discredited at this point. The UN’s reaction to the Oct 7th attack has been abysmal

paladium · 05/12/2023 09:20

If it's any consolation to you, the United Nations, Amnesty, Human Rights watch and other major human rights organisations are also very fucking concerned about these people.

So, I think it's pretty safe to say we can be certain they are deserving of our concern and attention.

But don't worry, it's just "1% of displaced people". Nothing to see here, time to move on people...🙄

We should always be concerned about oppression and human rights, war crimes and genocide. WHOEVER it is being done to. And that includes Palestinians.

paladium · 05/12/2023 09:16

"80 years later we are utterly transfixed on 1% of all displaced people in the 1940s."

Yes, because those people are being brutally oppressed and genocided in a horrific war. HTH.

Pennina · 05/12/2023 08:25

cauliflowerwaterfall · 05/12/2023 01:31

To put it in perspective, in the 1940s around 40-60 million people were displaced. Even if they hadn’t just survived a genocide (some of them two in <50 years) the supposedly European Jews (and we had been rejected by Europeans in the most extreme ways imaginable) quite literally didn’t have homes to go to, millions of Europeans themselves didn’t even have homes to go to. Two years after the war there were still almost a million people living in dire conditions in refugee camps, with nowhere to be repatriated to. The UN had a massive job figuring out what to do, and the refugees themselves had very little say. On top of that there were also people being expelled by countries as recriminations after the war. Lots of countries including the US and UK were accepting enormous amounts of refugees and trying to integrate them. At the same time you also have the beginning of the enormous process of decolonisation, with massive spaces like Africa and the Middle East being carved up into smaller self-governing states - this was not a peaceful process in a lot of places.

On a massive scale the UN was trying to find space for millions of people and carve up colonised/occupied land into small territories consisting of relatively unified peoples that would get along well enough for them to be stable. This sometimes involved moving people against their wishes.

What was happening in the Levant was happening everywhere, it was happening to Palestine’s neighbours. It is so strange to complain about mass immigration in the Levant when mass immigration was happening everywhere, just because they were Jews. Most Jews did not go to the Levant and unlike with the Jews and the Holocaust there was also a clear opportunity for the process to happen peacefully which was not taken.

Which is why it’s so strange that after two wars that completely transformed the entire planet and uprooted tens of millions, 80 years later we are utterly transfixed on 1% of all displaced people in the 1940s. To the point of not caring about either the 99% or all the displaced people who came after like the MENA Jews. It’s because of antisemitism.

Edited

This is such a helpful explanation with just the right tone too. Thank you for this. It should go on every "conflict" thread!

Hag sameach

cauliflowerwaterfall · 05/12/2023 01:32

VerityUnreasonble · 05/12/2023 01:25

@cauliflowerwaterfall thank you for your continued attempts to explain the history and some of the current issues in such a calm and reasoned way. I appreciate the time you are putting into these posts.

I hope the next week + brings you lots of doughnuts.

Thank you! I am dreaming of doughnuts and latkes already!

cauliflowerwaterfall · 05/12/2023 01:31

To put it in perspective, in the 1940s around 40-60 million people were displaced. Even if they hadn’t just survived a genocide (some of them two in <50 years) the supposedly European Jews (and we had been rejected by Europeans in the most extreme ways imaginable) quite literally didn’t have homes to go to, millions of Europeans themselves didn’t even have homes to go to. Two years after the war there were still almost a million people living in dire conditions in refugee camps, with nowhere to be repatriated to. The UN had a massive job figuring out what to do, and the refugees themselves had very little say. On top of that there were also people being expelled by countries as recriminations after the war. Lots of countries including the US and UK were accepting enormous amounts of refugees and trying to integrate them. At the same time you also have the beginning of the enormous process of decolonisation, with massive spaces like Africa and the Middle East being carved up into smaller self-governing states - this was not a peaceful process in a lot of places.

On a massive scale the UN was trying to find space for millions of people and carve up colonised/occupied land into small territories consisting of relatively unified peoples that would get along well enough for them to be stable. This sometimes involved moving people against their wishes.

What was happening in the Levant was happening everywhere, it was happening to Palestine’s neighbours. It is so strange to complain about mass immigration in the Levant when mass immigration was happening everywhere, just because they were Jews. Most Jews did not go to the Levant and unlike with the Jews and the Holocaust there was also a clear opportunity for the process to happen peacefully which was not taken.

Which is why it’s so strange that after two wars that completely transformed the entire planet and uprooted tens of millions, 80 years later we are utterly transfixed on 1% of all displaced people in the 1940s. To the point of not caring about either the 99% or all the displaced people who came after like the MENA Jews. It’s because of antisemitism.

VerityUnreasonble · 05/12/2023 01:25

@cauliflowerwaterfall thank you for your continued attempts to explain the history and some of the current issues in such a calm and reasoned way. I appreciate the time you are putting into these posts.

I hope the next week + brings you lots of doughnuts.

Itsaharddlife · 05/12/2023 00:51

cauliflowerwaterfall · 05/12/2023 00:48

And why was there mass Jewish immigration?

Oh for goodness sakes. You've not actually addressed the point I'm making.
I get it, I really do. They were being persecuted and wanted a homeland to feel safe. I can understand that, I don't however agree with how they've achieved that. And in the end are they safe now?

cauliflowerwaterfall · 05/12/2023 00:48

And why was there mass Jewish immigration?

Itsaharddlife · 05/12/2023 00:45

cauliflowerwaterfall · 05/12/2023 00:30

It is not an argument any Israeli is using, it’s an antisemitic trope.

You are taking a story from Judaism and falsely pretending Jews believe modern day Israel was gifted by God. I’m not religious, and lots and lots of different peoples around the world have a mythologised history of how they came to be associated with their ancestral land. Sometimes the stories are magical or spiritual. You don’t have to believe it word for word, but it demonstrates a link. In the case of Judaism, it’s Moses leading the Hebrews across the desert from where they were enslaved in Egypt. FYI bad news for you but archaeology does not support this story and does in fact suggest that the ancient Hebrews came from………well……… Canaan, or what you might call “Israel/Palestine”.

Show quote history

You've missed my point entirely. Honestly ridiculous that your justifying this by who was there first?
The fact remains that between 1900-1980 there was mass Jewish immigration into the land that was recognised as palestine before 1948. The first came from Russia hungry Poland, and then more from Eastern Europe during the nazis and then post 1948 there was mass immigration of Jews from Arab countries.
They werent there before. For them to move in massive numbers into the homeland of another people (mixture of Jews, Muslims, christians) and then essentially force them people out under the pretence that they were there first (thousands of years earlier) . Ridiculous and cannot in any way justify the nakba . Back to my original point.

cauliflowerwaterfall · 05/12/2023 00:30

Itsaharddlife · 05/12/2023 00:12

It's not racist its literally the argument many israelis are using. I thinks it's racist to have one rule for one and another for others.
Where do you think these palestinian refugees came from? They were forced out of their homes. 1948 nakba so Jewish settlers could take their place.
It doesn't make it ok for them to continue creating illegal settlements either

Show quote history

It is not an argument any Israeli is using, it’s an antisemitic trope.

You are taking a story from Judaism and falsely pretending Jews believe modern day Israel was gifted by God. I’m not religious, and lots and lots of different peoples around the world have a mythologised history of how they came to be associated with their ancestral land. Sometimes the stories are magical or spiritual. You don’t have to believe it word for word, but it demonstrates a link. In the case of Judaism, it’s Moses leading the Hebrews across the desert from where they were enslaved in Egypt. FYI bad news for you but archaeology does not support this story and does in fact suggest that the ancient Hebrews came from………well……… Canaan, or what you might call “Israel/Palestine”.

paladium · 05/12/2023 00:13

OkInSmallDoses · 04/12/2023 23:42

I guess I should pack up and make my way back to my Viking roots in Norway or wherever my ancestors were from.

Don’t be disingenuous. We’re talking about people being displaced within living memory, not a thousand years ago.

Incidentally if one of your parents were Norwegian you would have more chance of gaining Norwegian citizenship than a Gazan whose both parents were expelled from Palestine gaining the right to return.

We don’t expect any other people to put up with the lack of rights given to the Palestinians. We don’t call any other group ridiculous for wanting such basic dignity.

So sorry I was being sarcastic and didn't read back through the debate far enough and missed something. I am on the side of Palestinians to have their right to return but thought the chat related to people claiming their land from thousands of years ago. I don't think anyone should be able to claim ownership to a land based on ancestors living there thousands of years ago, but do think Palestinians expelled in recent decades should be allowed to return. Scanning quickly but should have RTFT better, sorry if my comment didn't make sense.

Itsaharddlife · 05/12/2023 00:12

cauliflowerwaterfall · 05/12/2023 00:04

@Itsaharddlife it’s nothing to do with God, that’s just racist.

Jews are indigenous to the Levant. This is backed up by archaeological, scientific and genetic evidence and is a matter of extensive historical record.
Despite multiple conquests, Jews have had a continuous, uninterrupted presence on the Levant for thousands of years, which even predates the migration of Arabs to the Levant. Jewish links to the land are constant and ancient.
The vast majority of Israeli Jews descended from refugees are descended from MENA refugees. There is no other MENA country that wants them, only Israel. I have not seen anyone call for their right of return 🧐
The conflict in the Levant between Arabs and Jews predates the British Mandate (by centuries). By the time of the mandate, the British and then the UN were on their nth attempt to resolve a conflict that already existed.
The state of Israel was created in the same way many states were created during those years of the exit of colonial powers. The only difference between Israel and the other new states (including Palestine) is that it was to have a Jewish majority which is the only reason it is still controversial. How much time do you spend debating whether Jordan has a right to exist and have a national identity? Or Pakistan? Or even Palestine? These could all be described as novel colonial creations in exactly the same way.
Israel controls its own immigration policy, its own borders and decides whether to accept refugees. Your critique applies to every single country on earth. A lot of Jews see Aaliyah as a spiritual journey - two things can be true. Most countries have immigration. Lots of countries do not allow Jewish immigration at all, and yet you begrudge the one single country that celebrates it.
Taking in refugees is a nice thing to do.
If historical ties to a land are so irrelevant, then why does it matter where a Palestinian dude’s grandad was living before 1948?
A lot of the kibbutzes that were attacked on October 7 for being “occupied” predate Israel and were founded on empty bits of British desert. The founders were rebelling against the colonial power, Britain, by finding loopholes in Britain’s planning laws. Do they have to return the land to the crown or do the British have right of return?
Israel exists. It has statehood, is internationally recognised, has a national identity and a military prepared to defend it. 9 million Israelis are not going anywhere. Get used to them.
Palestinians have been kept in permanent refugee status thanks to UNWRA. Peace is actively prevented by idiots pedalling the false hope of the “right of return” to people who would never be entitled to it anyway. Israel is going nowhere. They need to accept the 2 state solution and focus on making Palestine successful. The authorities need to stop investing in trying to wipe out Jews and start investing in making Palestinian lives better.

It's not racist its literally the argument many israelis are using. I thinks it's racist to have one rule for one and another for others.
Where do you think these palestinian refugees came from? They were forced out of their homes. 1948 nakba so Jewish settlers could take their place.
It doesn't make it ok for them to continue creating illegal settlements either

cauliflowerwaterfall · 05/12/2023 00:04

@Itsaharddlife it’s nothing to do with God, that’s just racist.

Jews are indigenous to the Levant. This is backed up by archaeological, scientific and genetic evidence and is a matter of extensive historical record.
Despite multiple conquests, Jews have had a continuous, uninterrupted presence on the Levant for thousands of years, which even predates the migration of Arabs to the Levant. Jewish links to the land are constant and ancient.
The vast majority of Israeli Jews descended from refugees are descended from MENA refugees. There is no other MENA country that wants them, only Israel. I have not seen anyone call for their right of return 🧐
The conflict in the Levant between Arabs and Jews predates the British Mandate (by centuries). By the time of the mandate, the British and then the UN were on their nth attempt to resolve a conflict that already existed.
The state of Israel was created in the same way many states were created during those years of the exit of colonial powers. The only difference between Israel and the other new states (including Palestine) is that it was to have a Jewish majority which is the only reason it is still controversial. How much time do you spend debating whether Jordan has a right to exist and have a national identity? Or Pakistan? Or even Palestine? These could all be described as novel colonial creations in exactly the same way.
Israel controls its own immigration policy, its own borders and decides whether to accept refugees. Your critique applies to every single country on earth. A lot of Jews see Aaliyah as a spiritual journey - two things can be true. Most countries have immigration. Lots of countries do not allow Jewish immigration at all, and yet you begrudge the one single country that celebrates it.
Taking in refugees is a nice thing to do.
If historical ties to a land are so irrelevant, then why does it matter where a Palestinian dude’s grandad was living before 1948?
A lot of the kibbutzes that were attacked on October 7 for being “occupied” predate Israel and were founded on empty bits of British desert. The founders were rebelling against the colonial power, Britain, by finding loopholes in Britain’s planning laws. Do they have to return the land to the crown or do the British have right of return?
Israel exists. It has statehood, is internationally recognised, has a national identity and a military prepared to defend it. 9 million Israelis are not going anywhere. Get used to them.
Palestinians have been kept in permanent refugee status thanks to UNWRA. Peace is actively prevented by idiots pedalling the false hope of the “right of return” to people who would never be entitled to it anyway. Israel is going nowhere. They need to accept the 2 state solution and focus on making Palestine successful. The authorities need to stop investing in trying to wipe out Jews and start investing in making Palestinian lives better.

mollyfolk · 04/12/2023 23:53

miniaturepixieonacid · 04/12/2023 14:22

RedToothBrush The Egypt one is what I would have hoped. Obviously not into Israel. I know it's been mostly shut but that's what seems so inhumane to me. I know Egypt couldn't do everything but if the world leaders as a whole could just get people (who wanted to go) over the border where they aren't in imminent danger of being blown up and then work out how to help them so many lives could be saved.

I think it's the tiny size and being nearly surrounded by Israel that I'm not appreciating though. I thought there was a Lebanon border too but now see that's just Israel. My map Geography is woeful, I admit. I can name you every single country in the world and their capitals but I couldn't place more than a handful on a map. No spatial awareness or memory for shapes at all.

This is an interesting article on why Egypt won’t let Gazan’s in.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/02/why-egypt-has-not-fully-opened-its-gaza-border-for-fleeing-palestinians

and the Egyptian’s protesting for the border to be opened (where Protest is illegal) https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/03/egypt-palestinians-rafah-border-rights

Here in Egypt, to protest is to risk prison. But we must speak out for our Palestinian neighbours | Israel-Hamas war | The Guardian

The pain of those on the other side of the Rafah border is keenly felt: we know that their rights are inseparable from our own, says author Ahdaf Soueif

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/03/egypt-palestinians-rafah-border-rights

OkInSmallDoses · 04/12/2023 23:42

I guess I should pack up and make my way back to my Viking roots in Norway or wherever my ancestors were from.

Don’t be disingenuous. We’re talking about people being displaced within living memory, not a thousand years ago.

Incidentally if one of your parents were Norwegian you would have more chance of gaining Norwegian citizenship than a Gazan whose both parents were expelled from Palestine gaining the right to return.

We don’t expect any other people to put up with the lack of rights given to the Palestinians. We don’t call any other group ridiculous for wanting such basic dignity.

OkInSmallDoses · 04/12/2023 23:30

That’s not even accounting for the fact that everyone and their dog is suddenly claiming their great grandad was from West Jerusalem

This is a remarkably cruel and flippant thing to say considering Muslims are literally being forced out of their homes in Jerusalem. Sometimes their doors are being welded shut by the IDF.

Colonialism at its finest.

Itisyourturntowashthebath · 04/12/2023 23:27

For a Palestinian it is possible to travel from the West Bank to Gaza only if the person pledges to permanently relocating to Gaza.

This seems to be quite an unusual law. Most countries , including Israel, allow travel according to article 13 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. So why are Palestinians different?

OkInSmallDoses · 04/12/2023 23:26

You have accidentally stumbled on the reason there will never be peace.

There will never be peace while Palestine still ridiculously demands “right of return”. It is not going to happen.

And you’ve stumbled on the appalling double standards of Israel’s apartheid policy. Do you think it’s ok that European Jews who are no longer fleeing persecution can make Aliyah even though they’ve never set foot in Israel whilst Palestinians are not allowed out of Gaza into the villages of their parents and grandparents?

Itsaharddlife · 04/12/2023 23:19

paladium · 04/12/2023 23:14

@Itsaharddlife I guess I should pack up and make my way back to my Viking roots in Norway or wherever my ancestors were from. Looking forward to claiming my Norwegian lake and log cabin. I'm sure the Norwegians will welcome me with open arms, LOL.

So I guess the Israeli law of return is ok, you can come if you or your relatives are Jewish. Yet the Palestinian refugees can't return.

And people are still arguing that Israel wants peace

EasterIssland · 04/12/2023 23:19

stomachameleon · 04/12/2023 22:42

@Itsaharddlife do you have many open air Prisons where people chose to holiday, has huge wealth and its own horse racing federation?

It's laughable. And shows how Little you actually know about that area....

Israel withdraw
Gaza scuppered the infrastructure.

I didn’t know about this so researched

wealth : citizens are poor. Unlike Hamas top members (which id expect as they’re funded by other governments )

people choose to holiday : I love traveling so I’ve searched what do I have to do to holiday in Gaza. This is what I can find “Gaza is not open to individuals wishing to travel or explore the region per se, but to those with a connection to international organisations or journalists, for example. In order to gain access to Gaza, you must have a legitimate reason to enter before you can apply for either an Israeli Israeli or Egyptian travel permit” unfortunately Israel wouldn’t allow me choosing Gaza as a holiday.

Federation: yeah this seems like the Gazans are really lucky that they’re allowed to have one! Not sure why they complain!

unfortunately it’s not us only calling it open air prison : human rights watch , ai , un and many other international organisations call it too.

paladium · 04/12/2023 23:14

@Itsaharddlife I guess I should pack up and make my way back to my Viking roots in Norway or wherever my ancestors were from. Looking forward to claiming my Norwegian lake and log cabin. I'm sure the Norwegians will welcome me with open arms, LOL.

Itsaharddlife · 04/12/2023 23:12

cauliflowerwaterfall · 04/12/2023 23:06

You have accidentally stumbled on the reason there will never be peace.

There will never be peace while Palestine still ridiculously demands “right of return”. It is not going to happen. That’s not even accounting for the fact that everyone and their dog is suddenly claiming their great grandad was from West Jerusalem lmao. Stage 1 of peace, which could have happened 75 years ago, would be accepting the 2 state solution.

Show quote history

Ridiculous demand. Its ridiculous to expect people to give up their homeland because another people stake a claim on it from thousands years previously because it was supposedly given to them by God. Its ridiculous that you think it was ok for European Jews to move there yet those that were born there or can trace their ancestors and immediate family to the land have no right to return.

cauliflowerwaterfall · 04/12/2023 23:06

OkInSmallDoses · 04/12/2023 22:42

The reason why Palestinians have not accepted the terms laid down by Israel in the many negotiations is because those terms are unreasonable.

The right to return was not granted to those forcibly evicted. Who in their right mind would accept such terms.

It is a testament to Israeli spin that Israel managed to unilaterally declare itself a state, take over a country, expel the local population but it is the Palestinians who are seen to be unreasonable for not accepting the crumbs that are thrown to them.

Not even all Israeli citizens are aware of the history behind their State.

Edited

You have accidentally stumbled on the reason there will never be peace.

There will never be peace while Palestine still ridiculously demands “right of return”. It is not going to happen. That’s not even accounting for the fact that everyone and their dog is suddenly claiming their great grandad was from West Jerusalem lmao. Stage 1 of peace, which could have happened 75 years ago, would be accepting the 2 state solution.