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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

Why Can't Gazans Leave?

960 replies

miniaturepixieonacid · 04/12/2023 13:25

There is probably a very simple answer to this that I missed in early news reports.

It's so awful watching News Feeds that essentially seem to say that Gazans are having to move around in a cat and mouse game with the IDF to avoid bombs but have nowhere left to go.

I am very aware that war has casualties and other countries are at war. I am not necessarily saying that IDF should stop fighting.

But this war is different in that all civilians seem to be trapped. Normally war creates refugees. Ukrainians, Afghans, Syrians - they were able to get out. Not all, I know, but movement was an option and it kept civilian casualties down. Why can't Gazans leave Gaza?

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paladium · 08/12/2023 09:40

@cauliflowerwaterfall from the article:

Channel 2 TV reported that in the 1990s, specialists at Abu Kabir harvested skin, corneas, heart valves and bones from the bodies of Israeli soldiers, Israeli citizens, Palestinians and foreign workers, often without permission from relatives.

The Israeli military confirmed to the programme that the practice took place, but added: "This activity ended a decade ago and does not happen any longer."Hiss said: "We started to harvest corneas ... whatever was done was highly informal. No permission was asked from the family."

^^

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 09:39

EasterIssland · 08/12/2023 09:33

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2009/dec/21/israeli-pathologists-harvested-organs

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A dodgy hospital in the 90s had a consent scandal which affected Israelis and Palestinians. Similar scandals have happened at hospitals here in the UK, which probably affected ethnic minorities too but it isn’t reasonable to say based on that “the British Army harvests organs from Muslims”. In this case the job is to invoke the blood libel. No the IDF does not harvest organs and yes it’s racist.

EasterIssland · 08/12/2023 09:36

backtowinter · 08/12/2023 09:22

I never trust a terrorist organisation and can't understand those who do

But you do you

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hamas Hasn’t said anything about this men yet so not sure why you’re saying that those that are raising questions about these arrests are believing Hamas.

Even idf hasn’t confirmed they were terrorists that has surrounded.

finally, if I was a Hamas terrorist would I surrender knowing I’ll be tortured or will I kill my self before being arrested and If possible try to kill others ? It makes no sense that 100 Terrorists have decided to surrender at the same time. Maybe I’m too naive

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 09:35

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This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Sorry, you think someone saying our trauma and genetics mean we have no empathy is a “thoughtful response”? No, it’s very old-fashioned antisemitism.

feralunderclass · 08/12/2023 09:33

25milesfromhome · 07/12/2023 11:25

There’s no denying the Palestinians have been oppressed and suffered greatly, but the narrative that Israel was built on the strategic oppression of an indigenous people by a tiny minority (all ethnic Jews are indigenous to Israel btw, not a tiny minority of them) is imposing a Western centric/white colonial narrative and viewpoint upon the situation in order to reinforce an antisemitic ideology and bias.

Conflating the occupied territories as they currently exist to the establishment of the state of Israel as all part of the same colonialist endeavour bolsters Westernised, ideological/political anti-Israel rhetoric and seeks to reinforce division and opposition, rather than mutual interest and co-operation. Israel exists and it’s not going anywhere, the legitimacy of Israel and the legitimacy (or lack of, really) of the occupied territories are two different things. The excessive focus on Israel’s right to exist and the resentment that it does only serves to overshadow and distract from the reality of the current situation and work that needs to be done for the Palestinian people.

If the welfare and freedom of the Palestinian people really was Hamas, their associates and backers’ first concern, it’s not clear how they thought launching a savage and depraved large scale attack on Israel was going to further this cause with a workable, co-operative solution. Hamas and the other terrorist groups in Gaza and the West Bank were not born out of the despair of oppression, they were mostly born of a violent internal Palestinian power struggle, financed by external interests and corruption. They’re only really in alignment with regards to their hatred of Jews and their desire for control of the Palestinian people and territories.

Anyway, I agree with @Parkingt111 that at this point, preserving life is the most important thing. The Gazans who want to leave should be allowed to, and there should be greater international pressure and support to allow this to happen, coupled with a guarantee that they will be able to return when the conflict is over.

There should be no 'but'. It is reality that Israel exists as a result of white colonialism - who bolstered Israel? It was UK and US. I don't see anything antisemitic about that. It's the truth. It's also the truth (and this has become so apparent with this current government) that more and more land is being illegally grabbed. Government ministers have said they will not stop until the West Bank is for Jewish people only. The apparent ideology and MO is to wipe out the Palestinians.

Parkingt111 · 08/12/2023 09:33

backtowinter · 08/12/2023 08:58

That's EXACTLY what some posters think

They must all be innocent because...? Well, I'm not sure anymore what the current reason is

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They might be innocent because right now the IDF haven't said that they are all terrorists

Yet you claimed they all were based on what?

paladium · 08/12/2023 09:32

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EasterIssland · 08/12/2023 09:32

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 08:36

So you think the IDF are thinking “obviously these are just a bunch of civilians coincidentally the rough age and sex of the other terrorists, innocently hanging out with terrorists, underground in a terrorist bunker, during a time we are at war with terrorists, who are surrendering to us, but we’re so evil let’s take these very unlikely suspects in for questioning anyway.”

You can’t arrest people just because they’ve a certain type of characteristics. That’s not how it works.

EasterIssland · 08/12/2023 09:30

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 08:13

They all terror suspects, all of them.

The surrender is a good thing.

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Unfortunately for you this is not how it works.

Efacsen · 08/12/2023 09:29

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 09:24

You did not just accuse the IDF of organ harvesting… that’s blood libel

They actually admitted to harvesting organs following an investigation in 2009 but said at the time it had stopped. Verified evidence has been posted several times before

So not 'blood libel'

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 09:24

You did not just accuse the IDF of organ harvesting… that’s blood libel

backtowinter · 08/12/2023 09:22

This reply has been deleted

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

I never trust a terrorist organisation and can't understand those who do

But you do you

paladium · 08/12/2023 09:19

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Parkingt111 · 08/12/2023 09:12

@cauliflowerwaterfall the point you seemed to have missed is that there were civilians in there that have been identified hence the concern as we know the IDF's history in handling potential suspects

You and others have automatically branded them all as terrorists when even the IDF haven't said that, according to the last update I have read this morning

There also hasn't been any updates on whether those who were known civilians and not Hamas have been released

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 09:05

backtowinter · 08/12/2023 08:58

That's EXACTLY what some posters think

They must all be innocent because...? Well, I'm not sure anymore what the current reason is

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I have also seen posters claim they have been executed based on a photo of them alive.

Earlier on in the thread people were saying the Israelis shouldn’t kill poor terrorists during combat they should take them alive for questioning and prosecution. Now they have done just that and people feel sorry for them being split from their families.

The IDF can’t win 😂

Toothyfruity · 08/12/2023 09:04

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 08:36

So you think the IDF are thinking “obviously these are just a bunch of civilians coincidentally the rough age and sex of the other terrorists, innocently hanging out with terrorists, underground in a terrorist bunker, during a time we are at war with terrorists, who are surrendering to us, but we’re so evil let’s take these very unlikely suspects in for questioning anyway.”

They were taken from a school where civilians are sheltering because the IDF destroyed their homes.

I'm pretty sure Hamas don't surrender either. I would imagine they'd rather fight and die than be taken prisoner by Israel. We know how Israel treats children and women it detains I can't imagine how they'd treat Hamas members.

Your immediate acceptance that these are all terrorists who deserve this fate says a lot about your opinion of Palestinians

backtowinter · 08/12/2023 08:58

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 08:36

So you think the IDF are thinking “obviously these are just a bunch of civilians coincidentally the rough age and sex of the other terrorists, innocently hanging out with terrorists, underground in a terrorist bunker, during a time we are at war with terrorists, who are surrendering to us, but we’re so evil let’s take these very unlikely suspects in for questioning anyway.”

That's EXACTLY what some posters think

They must all be innocent because...? Well, I'm not sure anymore what the current reason is

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 08:36

So you think the IDF are thinking “obviously these are just a bunch of civilians coincidentally the rough age and sex of the other terrorists, innocently hanging out with terrorists, underground in a terrorist bunker, during a time we are at war with terrorists, who are surrendering to us, but we’re so evil let’s take these very unlikely suspects in for questioning anyway.”

paladium · 08/12/2023 08:15

@EasterIssland there you have it. Definitive "proof" from Cauliflowerwaterfall.

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 08:13

EasterIssland · 08/12/2023 07:12

Where is the proof that this people are Hamas members ? A real proof please

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They all terror suspects, all of them.

The surrender is a good thing.

EasterIssland · 08/12/2023 07:12

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 00:15

It blows my mind… I mean you have the unconditional surrender of all those Hamas operatives, no lives lost, civilian or combatant, it’s an optimal battle outcome. And people actually turn that around and say it proves Israel is evil, that they’re sl-t-shaming terrorists, and also casually complain about our “genetics” 🤯 there’s nothing they can’t twist and what a dogwhistle

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Where is the proof that this people are Hamas members ? A real proof please

iloveeverykindofcat · 08/12/2023 06:30

@paladium It doesn't help that Palestinians have been systematically dehumanized by the global media industry for decades. I'm not even talking about the internal Israeli propaganda which literally depicts them as walking targets, thats another thread altogether, I'm talking about the way Palestinians have historically been uncounted, ignored and treated as collateral damage in the arena of global politics. The only reason I know about Palestine is because I'm Arab. I can see my relatives' faces and hear their voices in the videos coming out of Gaza. Most of my friends, a reasonably educated group, are now learning about what has been done to Palestinians for the first time.

If anything good can ever come out of this unending atrocity, it may be that Palestinian lives will not be so easily discounted in the future.

twilightmoon3 · 08/12/2023 04:49

Dulra · 07/12/2023 22:16

Just watching BBC news at 10. Jeremy Bowen interviewing an Israeli politician from the religious zionist party, asking what's the answer an everlasting occupation? his response... Occupation is not the word, one cannot occupy his own land, Bowen asks "Gaza that's the land of Israel?" His response yes land of Israel you can not be occupying it.

So there we have it, they see it as their land they don't see themselves as occupiers, unbelievable arrogance.

When God's name's on the title deed there can be no doubt whose land it is. Funny though that God gave the Arabs oil but Israel a desert or maybe it's all a load of religious nut jobbery and humanity without ethnicity or religion would have a chance of prospering and surviving. One race the human race.

FrozenWindscreen · 08/12/2023 01:38

Livinginanotherworld · 07/12/2023 22:37

They have already identified one local respected journalist and his family and are working to identify as many as possible of these poor innocent civilians so they at least have a record of what happened to them. Be in no doubt, this is a war crime and is inhumane and appalling. They are rounding up any men and boys 15 years and older, they are executing them. This is horrific.

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Where have you got it from that they have been executed?

Media reports say they were taken to an undisclosed location.

How do you know they are innocent civilians? We know civilians (or Palestinians not dressed in fatigues and Hamas head gear) were involved in the atrocities on October 7th. They filmed themselves spitting on Shani Louk’s naked, broken, dead body for a start.

They look middle aged and unfit? Have you seen the Hamas leaders? Or Israeli leaders and commanders for that matter.

Palestinians have a history of suicide bombings and stabbing attacks on Israelis which is probably why they were made to strip.

There is quite a bit googleable about UNWRA’s alleged allegiance with terrorist groups. This is dated 2007 so long before this current conflict. Obviously most posters will disbelieve it but it sheds light on Israel’s perspective which is what they will be acting on.

https://www.jewishpolicycenter.org/2007/08/31/how-unrwa-supports-hamas/

It is noticeable that some posters get more and more hysterical when others have conflicting views that don’t fit in with the accepted rhetoric.

How UNRWA Supports Hamas – Jewish Policy Center

Palestinians in the new Islamic State of Gaza, crying out for more aid from the United Nations, are turning to United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) for help. Their reliance upon UNRWA comes as no surprise. The organization has been providing...

https://www.jewishpolicycenter.org/2007/08/31/how-unrwa-supports-hamas/

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