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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

Why Can't Gazans Leave?

960 replies

miniaturepixieonacid · 04/12/2023 13:25

There is probably a very simple answer to this that I missed in early news reports.

It's so awful watching News Feeds that essentially seem to say that Gazans are having to move around in a cat and mouse game with the IDF to avoid bombs but have nowhere left to go.

I am very aware that war has casualties and other countries are at war. I am not necessarily saying that IDF should stop fighting.

But this war is different in that all civilians seem to be trapped. Normally war creates refugees. Ukrainians, Afghans, Syrians - they were able to get out. Not all, I know, but movement was an option and it kept civilian casualties down. Why can't Gazans leave Gaza?

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stormy4319trevor · 08/12/2023 21:49

The 5 permanent members of UNSC have the right to veto. That's US, UK, Russia, China and France. I think it was set up that way after WW2, It does seem like it should be changed. It's unfair on the other countries.

TokyoSushi · 08/12/2023 21:49

Livinginanotherworld · 08/12/2023 21:29

Why can’t the other countries override the US and UK votes if everyone else voted for a ceasefire ? I don’t understand how they get the deciding vote ? If this is the case then there is nothing the world can do 😢

They're 'Senior members' of the security council (Us, the USA, France and other such countries) so therefore have a veto. If one of these countries says no, the answer is no.

Livinginanotherworld · 08/12/2023 21:29

Why can’t the other countries override the US and UK votes if everyone else voted for a ceasefire ? I don’t understand how they get the deciding vote ? If this is the case then there is nothing the world can do 😢

Parkingt111 · 08/12/2023 21:26

stormy4319trevor · 08/12/2023 20:59

Utterly disgusting from the US and the UK. @Parkingt111

I agree

Livinginanotherworld · 08/12/2023 21:24

FrozenWindscreen · 08/12/2023 20:07

Evidence schizophrenia was caused by abuse in Israeli prison?

I remember being surprised at how healthy he looked in recent video of him after reading about his supposed horrific treatment in prison.

People do forget one of the victims was a 13 year old child himself @cauliflowerwaterfall

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My god this is horrific, that poor boy. How can you think that this is ok ? Seriously ?

Livinginanotherworld · 08/12/2023 21:18

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 19:07

We have prison for children (Young Offenders Institutions).

Children that commit violent crimes in the UK above the age of criminal responsibility can serve custodial sentences. Foreign nationals that commit violent crimes in the UK above the age of criminal responsibility can serve custodial sentences.

This is the norm in most countries, including Israel.

The minors in Israeli prisons are not 3 year olds. They are adolescent convicts above the age of criminal responsibility who were found guilty of violent crimes up to and including r-pe and murder, who would be sent to prison in most countries they could commit those crimes in.

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You are wrong, at lot of these children ( I’ll repeat children, not adolescent convicts) are between 8-14 who were throwing stones at tanks , held without any trial, no responsible adult allowed and subject to extreme beatings and torture daily.

stormy4319trevor · 08/12/2023 20:59

Utterly disgusting from the US and the UK. @Parkingt111

Parkingt111 · 08/12/2023 20:58

This is what the UK's ambassador to the UN had to say yet they still didn't vote for a ceasefire

The UK's ambassador to the UN Barbara Woodward has called the number of Palestinian deaths in Gaza "shocking" ahead of a vote on whether to support an immediate ceasefire.
She told the UN Security Council that mass displacement of the population "cannot continue".

Parkingt111 · 08/12/2023 20:55

What a disgrace

Only the US voted against
The UK abstained which is no better
All other 13 members voted yes for a ceasefire

Parkingt111 · 08/12/2023 20:54

US vetoes the resolution for immediate ceasefire in Gaza

The final vote is 13 members for, one abstention and one against.
The US, a permanent member of the UN Security Council, is the sole nation to vote against.
This means that the resolution has failed.

EasterIssland · 08/12/2023 20:35

FrozenWindscreen · 08/12/2023 20:32

You don’t say.

I was referring to the allegations that he’s been tortured and treated inhumanely. I thought that was pretty obvious from the wording in my post.

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Genuine question. What would you expect to see in a short video to proof that he has been tortured ?

FrozenWindscreen · 08/12/2023 20:32

paladium · 08/12/2023 20:21

Honestly surprised to have to state this, but you can't "see" schizophrenia via physical appearance.

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You don’t say.

I was referring to the allegations that he’s been tortured and treated inhumanely. I thought that was pretty obvious from the wording in my post.

EasterIssland · 08/12/2023 20:29

FrozenWindscreen · 08/12/2023 20:07

Evidence schizophrenia was caused by abuse in Israeli prison?

I remember being surprised at how healthy he looked in recent video of him after reading about his supposed horrific treatment in prison.

People do forget one of the victims was a 13 year old child himself @cauliflowerwaterfall

Show quote history

rape by being under captivity?

I remember being surprised at how healthy the Jewish looked in recent video of him after reading about their supposed horrific treatment during their time being a hostage.

note: no , this is not what i think. This is a comparison to proof how stupid your comment sounds by he looks so healthy… guess you know better than doctors that have followed his case. Also. Would you not have mental health problems if you were more than a year on your own in a room with no contact to anyone else? No, I know I bet you’d love the experience

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 20:27

FrozenWindscreen · 08/12/2023 20:07

Evidence schizophrenia was caused by abuse in Israeli prison?

I remember being surprised at how healthy he looked in recent video of him after reading about his supposed horrific treatment in prison.

People do forget one of the victims was a 13 year old child himself @cauliflowerwaterfall

Show quote history

Yeah and he got his sentence reduced for various reasons, one of which being the older cousin was the main instigator. I didn’t watch the trial but the way it was covered made it sound like he was more of an accomplice and not the mastermind, and during the trial he did express regret. The thing is then he also became a massive propaganda piece because the PA spread fake news about it. But it wouldn’t surprise me if he genuinely did have psychological trauma, except from guilt.

paladium · 08/12/2023 20:22

FrozenWindscreen · 08/12/2023 20:07

Evidence schizophrenia was caused by abuse in Israeli prison?

I remember being surprised at how healthy he looked in recent video of him after reading about his supposed horrific treatment in prison.

People do forget one of the victims was a 13 year old child himself @cauliflowerwaterfall

Show quote history

Also, see above. He DID NOT participate in the stabbings. Please don't spread misinformation.

paladium · 08/12/2023 20:21

FrozenWindscreen · 08/12/2023 20:07

Evidence schizophrenia was caused by abuse in Israeli prison?

I remember being surprised at how healthy he looked in recent video of him after reading about his supposed horrific treatment in prison.

People do forget one of the victims was a 13 year old child himself @cauliflowerwaterfall

Show quote history

Honestly surprised to have to state this, but you can't "see" schizophrenia via physical appearance.

Toothyfruity · 08/12/2023 20:16

FrozenWindscreen · 08/12/2023 20:07

Evidence schizophrenia was caused by abuse in Israeli prison?

I remember being surprised at how healthy he looked in recent video of him after reading about his supposed horrific treatment in prison.

People do forget one of the victims was a 13 year old child himself @cauliflowerwaterfall

Show quote history

You can't accept that treating a child like that is wrong? Jesus Christ.

FrozenWindscreen · 08/12/2023 20:07

Whatamidoinhere · 08/12/2023 19:37

This is a footage of interrogation of a 13 year old. He is 21 years old now and developed schizophrenia because of the abuse he faced in Israeli prisons.

Evidence schizophrenia was caused by abuse in Israeli prison?

I remember being surprised at how healthy he looked in recent video of him after reading about his supposed horrific treatment in prison.

People do forget one of the victims was a 13 year old child himself @cauliflowerwaterfall

Toothyfruity · 08/12/2023 20:07

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paladium · 08/12/2023 20:04

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 19:59

Ahmad Manasra and his cousin stabbed 2 Israelis, one of which was a 13-year-old boy. He cut an artery in the boy’s throat so severely the boy was assumed dead until he arrived at hospital. The Israeli boy, who was the actual victim of the incident, has himself talked about the psychological trauma and how he turned to drugs and gambling as a result of being a victim of this crime. The other victim also has lifelong injuries.

There is footage of this incident released publicly: because of course the internet spread the fake news that Israeli authorities had attacked 2 Palestinian boys for no reason.

Ahmad Manasra was treated for his own injuries in an Israeli Hospital. He was arrested and tried, and did in fact express regret for his actions. He had a right to legal representation and was defended by an Israeli. He was found guilty and sentenced to prison. His sentence was later shortened by the Israeli Supreme Court at the request of the Israeli prison authorities in light of his progress in rehabilitation.

Also far from being representative, the reason this case was so famous is because he was the youngest Palestinian to be tried, because of the seriousness of the crime. I think most people would agree that stabbing (and almost killing) two people including a child is a very serious crime and prison is appropriate.

According to Amnesty, he did not participate in the stabbings.

Ahmad Manasra was arrested in 2015 in relation to the stabbing and injury of two Israelis, aged 20 and 13, in occupied East Jerusalem. Although Israeli courts found that Ahmad did not participate in the stabbings, he is serving a nine-and-a-half-year sentence for attempted murder.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/09/israel-opt-after-nearly-2-years-in-solitary-confinement-ahmad-manasra-too-ill-to-attend-his-hearing/

Israel/OPT: After nearly 2 years in solitary confinement, Ahmad Manasra too ill to attend his hearing 

Ahmad Manasra, a young Palestinian man with serious mental health conditions, was too ill to attend his own hearing yesterday.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/09/israel-opt-after-nearly-2-years-in-solitary-confinement-ahmad-manasra-too-ill-to-attend-his-hearing

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 19:59

Ahmad Manasra and his cousin stabbed 2 Israelis, one of which was a 13-year-old boy. He cut an artery in the boy’s throat so severely the boy was assumed dead until he arrived at hospital. The Israeli boy, who was the actual victim of the incident, has himself talked about the psychological trauma and how he turned to drugs and gambling as a result of being a victim of this crime. The other victim also has lifelong injuries.

There is footage of this incident released publicly: because of course the internet spread the fake news that Israeli authorities had attacked 2 Palestinian boys for no reason.

Ahmad Manasra was treated for his own injuries in an Israeli Hospital. He was arrested and tried, and did in fact express regret for his actions. He had a right to legal representation and was defended by an Israeli. He was found guilty and sentenced to prison. His sentence was later shortened by the Israeli Supreme Court at the request of the Israeli prison authorities in light of his progress in rehabilitation.

Also far from being representative, the reason this case was so famous is because he was the youngest Palestinian to be tried, because of the seriousness of the crime. I think most people would agree that stabbing (and almost killing) two people including a child is a very serious crime and prison is appropriate.

Whatamidoinhere · 08/12/2023 19:37

This is a footage of interrogation of a 13 year old. He is 21 years old now and developed schizophrenia because of the abuse he faced in Israeli prisons.

#مش_متذكر .. استجواب الطفل #أحمد_مناصرة

#مش_متذكر .. استجواب الطفل #أحمد_مناصرة

https://youtu.be/S-NxJAlA4UY?si=YuM-ynumvk8ByAWk

EasterIssland · 08/12/2023 19:19

feralunderclass · 08/12/2023 19:15

We have young offender institutions, where young people go after going through a due process in the criminal justice system. At every stage the young person will be assigned an independent guardian, who is a specialised social worker to ensure that the child is protected and is awarded their full rights. They also have access to a specialised legal team,and visitations from oarents/guardians. To say this is similar to the prisons that Palestinian children are put in is an absolute insult, not to mention hugely ignorant. They have no due process, no legal rights, and can be indefinitely detained with no reason given.
ETA: These children also face assault, torture, sexual abuse, long periods of solitary confinement and psychological torture.

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Also to add we don’t torture and abuse them (or so do I hope)

cauliflowerwaterfall · 08/12/2023 19:15

Efacsen · 08/12/2023 18:21

This is what I asked earlier

And was misled by @cauliflowerwaterfall into believing that they would be POW and had an interesting afternoon looking at the Geneva convention with her

On further investigation it seems that Hamas fighters would not neccessarily be POWs because they are terrorists not part of a regular army

Civilians can't be POW because they're civilians

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Terrorists in foreign states are combatants - think of wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. The coalition wasn’t free to commit any war crimes they liked just because they were fighting terrorists. Perhaps what you mean is terrorism in Israel - so if a terrorist crosses the border, commits an act of terrorism, and is arrested within Israel, they are not POWs. Same when foreign nationals have committed terrorism here. The people taken in Gaza all have the rights of POWs because Israel suspects them of being combatants. Think of it like - if you are arrested in the UK, you’ll be read your rights. If the police later decide you’re innocent and you’re not a suspect anymore, they let you go, that doesn’t mean you didn’t really have those rights and if they were violated that’s ok because it didn’t count as you weren’t guilty. Same here - the IDF based on current intelligence suspects them of all being terrorists. If they are later let go, they still had POW rights.

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