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Conflict in the Middle East

Why Can't Gazans Leave?

960 replies

miniaturepixieonacid · 04/12/2023 13:25

There is probably a very simple answer to this that I missed in early news reports.

It's so awful watching News Feeds that essentially seem to say that Gazans are having to move around in a cat and mouse game with the IDF to avoid bombs but have nowhere left to go.

I am very aware that war has casualties and other countries are at war. I am not necessarily saying that IDF should stop fighting.

But this war is different in that all civilians seem to be trapped. Normally war creates refugees. Ukrainians, Afghans, Syrians - they were able to get out. Not all, I know, but movement was an option and it kept civilian casualties down. Why can't Gazans leave Gaza?

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Lucyskywalker88 · 31/01/2024 01:35

ChickHenLittle · 30/01/2024 23:00

They?
Is there a source that explains how Palestinians in general, and not extremist groups, planned an assassination amongst these other attempts at destabilisation? I didn't realise we were all implicated.

From a different conflict but the same principle -

Brigitte Gabriel gives FANTASTIC answer to Muslim woman claiming all Muslims are portrayed badly » T

Finally! For years all we hear is that Islam has been 'hijacked' and that most Muslims are peaceful people:And that matters to the 270 million people who hav...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry3NzkAOo3s

ChickHenLittle · 30/01/2024 23:00

stomachameleon · 30/01/2024 22:50

Might not be a compelling argument but obviously not a glowing indictment for peace when they cause those sort of disestablishing issues in whatever country has decided to show they kindness and fake them in.

They?
Is there a source that explains how Palestinians in general, and not extremist groups, planned an assassination amongst these other attempts at destabilisation? I didn't realise we were all implicated.

stomachameleon · 30/01/2024 22:50

Might not be a compelling argument but obviously not a glowing indictment for peace when they cause those sort of disestablishing issues in whatever country has decided to show they kindness and fake them in.

ChickHenLittle · 30/01/2024 22:31

Lucyskywalker88 · 30/01/2024 13:03

I never said that and you know I didn't.

However it's worth considering that Palestinians didn't exactly earn themselves any Brownie Points by trying to assassinate the King of Jordan, nor by supporting Iraq's invasion of Kuwait.

Palestinians? I didn't realise it was a national effort. Just like every single Brit voted for the Conservatives, I suppose.
Such inaccuracies don't make for a compelling argument.

Toothyfruity · 30/01/2024 14:05

Lucyskywalker88 · 30/01/2024 12:48

Not at all.

So did you protest about the poor treatment of Palestinians in the examples I gave?

No. I wasn't born/was a child for all but one of them I think. And the one that was during my adulthood was before I was an activist.

What point are you trying to make? Still trying to prove it's all anti-semitism? A quick look at how Israel is treating Gazans should be enough for you to understand why people are horrified.

Do you not think what's happening in Gaza is horrifying and unjust?

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 30/01/2024 13:42

SinnerBoy · 30/01/2024 13:23

So, it wasn't ethnic cleansing, then, rather, the expulsion of undesirable aliens.

As has been mentioned, your position seems to be: Other countries are horrible to them, so why can't Israel?

Well, supporting an occupation force will seriously blot one’s copybook and render one undesirable.

SinnerBoy · 30/01/2024 13:23

So, it wasn't ethnic cleansing, then, rather, the expulsion of undesirable aliens.

As has been mentioned, your position seems to be: Other countries are horrible to them, so why can't Israel?

Lucyskywalker88 · 30/01/2024 13:09

SinnerBoy · 30/01/2024 09:40

Kuwait's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians was notable not only because of its exponentially large scale but because it afforded the ultimate proof of the cynical Arab manipulation of the Palestinian cause.

Did they expel them from their own land and expropriate it for themselves?

No, they were guests in a country and then decided to support the invading forces !
Kuwait was quite justified in kicking them out.

Lucyskywalker88 · 30/01/2024 13:03

Efacsen · 30/01/2024 09:36

I understand now - so Israel should be allowed to treat Palestinians badly today because other Arab nations have behaved badly in the past

I never said that and you know I didn't.

However it's worth considering that Palestinians didn't exactly earn themselves any Brownie Points by trying to assassinate the King of Jordan, nor by supporting Iraq's invasion of Kuwait.

Lucyskywalker88 · 30/01/2024 12:48

Toothyfruity · 30/01/2024 09:44

So if lots of people treat a population badly it makes it all OK? Or what is your point?

If you're trying to say this is all about anti semitism, the reason people are upset at Israel isn't because they're a Jewish state it's because they are committing genocide after decades of imposing apartheid on the Palestinians. Decent people object to that.

@Lucyskywalker88

Not at all.

So did you protest about the poor treatment of Palestinians in the examples I gave?

BelleHathor · 30/01/2024 10:11

Toothyfruity · 30/01/2024 09:44

So if lots of people treat a population badly it makes it all OK? Or what is your point?

If you're trying to say this is all about anti semitism, the reason people are upset at Israel isn't because they're a Jewish state it's because they are committing genocide after decades of imposing apartheid on the Palestinians. Decent people object to that.

@Lucyskywalker88

It's a form of Nakba Denial. It ignores the atrocities committed by various Israeli terrorist groups such as the Haganah, the Stern gang and the Lehi, which resulted in the deaths of many Palestinians and whose barbarity caused the British to end their mandate.

As Ben Gurion said in a diary entry:

"What is necessary is cruel and strong reactions. We need precision in time, place, and casualties. If we know the family, we must strike mercilessly, women and children included. Otherwise, the reaction is inefficient. At the place of action, there is no need to distinguish between guilty and innocent." Ben Gurion's Diary entry, 1 January 1948

https://dawnmena.org/denying-the-nakba-75-years-later-a-democracy-in-exile-roundtable/

Denying the Nakba, 75 Years Later: A Democracy in Exile Roundtable

How has the suppression of the history of the Nakba shaped Western policy toward Israel and Palestine over the past 75 years?

https://dawnmena.org/denying-the-nakba-75-years-later-a-democracy-in-exile-roundtable

Toothyfruity · 30/01/2024 09:44

So if lots of people treat a population badly it makes it all OK? Or what is your point?

If you're trying to say this is all about anti semitism, the reason people are upset at Israel isn't because they're a Jewish state it's because they are committing genocide after decades of imposing apartheid on the Palestinians. Decent people object to that.

@Lucyskywalker88

SinnerBoy · 30/01/2024 09:40

Kuwait's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians was notable not only because of its exponentially large scale but because it afforded the ultimate proof of the cynical Arab manipulation of the Palestinian cause.

Did they expel them from their own land and expropriate it for themselves?

Efacsen · 30/01/2024 09:36

Lucyskywalker88 · 30/01/2024 09:30

Much has been made of the Palestinian exodus of 1948.
Yet during their decades of dispersal, the Palestinians have experienced no less traumatic ordeals at the hands of their Arab brothers.
As early as the mid-1950s, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Libya expelled striking Palestinian workers.
In 1970, Jordan expelled some 20,000 Palestinians and demolished their camps; in 1994-95, Libya expelled tens of thousands of long-term Palestinian residents in response to the Oslo process; and after the 2003 Iraq war, some 21,000 Palestinians fled the country in response to a systematic terror and persecution campaign.
As recently as 2007, Beirut effectively displaced 31,400 Palestinian refugees when the Lebanese army destroyed the Nahr el Bared refugee camp during fighting between the militant Fatal al-Islam group and the Lebanese army.

Where was the outcry over these events? Where were the street protests in London/New York/Paris ??

It seems to me that when Arabs treat their Arab "brothers" badly the world looks on.

But when the Jews are suspected of doing the same, everyone loses their minds.

Kuwait's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians was notable not only because of its exponentially large scale but because it afforded the ultimate proof of the cynical Arab manipulation of the Palestinian cause.
The Palestinian Kuwaiti community was arguably one of the most settled and economically integrated of Palestinian Arab diasporas, yet this did not prevent its uprooting in one fell swoop through no fault of its own.
As such, the Kuwait expulsion constituted the greatest setback to the "reintegration of the refugees into the normal life of the Near East," presented by successive U.N. resolutions as a crucial step toward Arab-Israeli peace.

I understand now - so Israel should be allowed to treat Palestinians badly today because other Arab nations have behaved badly in the past

Lucyskywalker88 · 30/01/2024 09:30

Efacsen · 30/01/2024 09:05

Well it's both isn't it?

Israel wants rid of this human encumbrance

Egypt don't want to help them with that and don't want to take 2 million Palestinian refugees for their own security and economic reasons

Much has been made of the Palestinian exodus of 1948.
Yet during their decades of dispersal, the Palestinians have experienced no less traumatic ordeals at the hands of their Arab brothers.
As early as the mid-1950s, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Libya expelled striking Palestinian workers.
In 1970, Jordan expelled some 20,000 Palestinians and demolished their camps; in 1994-95, Libya expelled tens of thousands of long-term Palestinian residents in response to the Oslo process; and after the 2003 Iraq war, some 21,000 Palestinians fled the country in response to a systematic terror and persecution campaign.
As recently as 2007, Beirut effectively displaced 31,400 Palestinian refugees when the Lebanese army destroyed the Nahr el Bared refugee camp during fighting between the militant Fatal al-Islam group and the Lebanese army.

Where was the outcry over these events? Where were the street protests in London/New York/Paris ??

It seems to me that when Arabs treat their Arab "brothers" badly the world looks on.

But when the Jews are suspected of doing the same, everyone loses their minds.

Kuwait's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians was notable not only because of its exponentially large scale but because it afforded the ultimate proof of the cynical Arab manipulation of the Palestinian cause.
The Palestinian Kuwaiti community was arguably one of the most settled and economically integrated of Palestinian Arab diasporas, yet this did not prevent its uprooting in one fell swoop through no fault of its own.
As such, the Kuwait expulsion constituted the greatest setback to the "reintegration of the refugees into the normal life of the Near East," presented by successive U.N. resolutions as a crucial step toward Arab-Israeli peace.

Efacsen · 30/01/2024 09:05

Lucyskywalker88 · 30/01/2024 08:30

In answer, again, to the original question - Egypt won't let them out because they tried to overturn the Egyptian government in the past and thousands of Palestinian refugees were expelled from Egypt at that time.
The real reason is not that Israel will not take them back, they fear they will have security risks if extremists enter and repeat their insurrection again in Egypt.

Black September in Jordan is another example when thousands of those so called "innocent" Palestinians were killed or expelled from Jordan after they tried to kill their king. This was because the King was due to sign a peace deal with Israel.

Israel had nothing to do with that.

Well it's both isn't it?

Israel wants rid of this human encumbrance

Egypt don't want to help them with that and don't want to take 2 million Palestinian refugees for their own security and economic reasons

Lucyskywalker88 · 30/01/2024 08:30

Toothyfruity · 29/01/2024 13:26

Ethnic cleansing is working out nicely in that case.

In answer, again, to the original question - Egypt won't let them out because they tried to overturn the Egyptian government in the past and thousands of Palestinian refugees were expelled from Egypt at that time.
The real reason is not that Israel will not take them back, they fear they will have security risks if extremists enter and repeat their insurrection again in Egypt.

Black September in Jordan is another example when thousands of those so called "innocent" Palestinians were killed or expelled from Jordan after they tried to kill their king. This was because the King was due to sign a peace deal with Israel.

Israel had nothing to do with that.

Toothyfruity · 29/01/2024 13:26

Ethnic cleansing is working out nicely in that case.

stormy4319trevor · 29/01/2024 11:49

@efacsen Someone else posted that if aid can't be supplied it gives Gazans refugee status, which creates international obligations. I don't really understand what this means - but presumably there's a process where the world agrees to accept a certain amount of people each.

Efacsen · 29/01/2024 11:25

Many more 10s of thousands being 'evacuated' from Khan Younis southwards to Rafah and Al Muwasi

Plus this

NRWA says unable to assist Gaza beyond February if funding does not resume

The United Nations Palestinian refugee agency (UNRWA) said on Monday that it would not be able to continue operations in Gaza and across the region beyond the end of February if funding were not resumed.

Maybe everyone will have to go to Egypt to get fed and get healthcare?

Efacsen · 18/01/2024 11:19

Current situation in Rafah 'safe area'

Associated Press has some quotes from inside Rafah, from people dealing with the aftermath of an Israeli airstrike which is believed to have killed 16 people, half of them children.

Dr Talat Barhoum at Rafah’s el-Najjar Hospital confirmed the death toll from the strike in Rafah and said dozens more were wounded. Associated Press footage from the hospital showed relatives weeping over the bodies of loved ones.

“They were suffering from hunger, they were dying from hunger, and now they have also been hit,” said Mahmoud Qassim, a relative of some of those who were killed.

Lucyskywalker88 · 13/01/2024 08:48

Going back to the original question as to why Palestinians can't leave

Egypt is the only Arab state to share a border with Gaza and it fears the destabilising effect of an exodus of Palestinians. Egypt and Jordan have both warned against Palestinians being forced off their land.

Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi is also wary of Hamas, an Islamist armed group created by the Muslim Brotherhood.

Since Hamas took control in Gaza in 2007, Egypt has helped enforce a blockade of the enclave.
During a previous blockage in 2008 Hamas blasted holes in Egypt's border fortifications. That allowed tens of thousands of Palestinians to cross into Sinai, and prompted Egypt to build a stone and cement wall.

Egypt is also wary of insecurity in NE Sinai, where it faced an Islamist insurgency that has now largely been suppressed.

Egypt has mediated between Israel and Palestinian factions during past conflicts. But in those situations it also locked down the border, allowing aid in and medical evacuees out but preventing any large-scale movement of people.

squirrelslikenuts · 12/01/2024 19:10

Another insane 'leader', like to see him and his family deported from the US. After all, they are only moving.
And he's a presidential candidate, clearly needs sane and knowledgable advisors to tell him to think before he speaks.

Lucyskywalker88 · 12/01/2024 09:37

Efacsen · 11/01/2024 08:51

US presidential candidate suggests removal of Palestinians from Gaza

Ron DeSantis, one of the Republican party’s top presidential candidates, says he won’t oppose Israel pushing Palestinians out of their homeland, adding the displaced could go to other Arab countries.

Well, good luck with that one...

King Abdullah II says no to Palestinian refugees in Jordan or Egypt

Jordanian leader said crisis in Gaza was a humanitarian issue that needed to be dealt with there.__________________All the latest news: https://www.thenation...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEUFZzUvhWA