Do lots of people support Hamas?

2 civilians for every Hamas fighter killed? ... That can't be further from the truth. Are you counting children and women as Hamas fighters? Those under 5 perhaps?

'To be honest it's quite upsetting to see but the responsibility for that is Hamas. They planned the battlefield by digging tunnels underneath the civilian population.
ttps://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12836551/Its-apocalyptic-Hamas-dug-tunnels-civilians-Inside-Israeli-artillery-unit-hitting-Gaza-Strip-IDF-close-terror-leaders-home.html

I agree. I'm giving it as an example of what they are saying is 'favourable'. That's the ratio that someone has used in propaganda in which they'll want to make their figures look as good as possible. Even the IDF's own 'positive' spin is giving horrific casualties and that's what they've gone on international media to promote as a good thing... Which means the reality is worse.

I personally feel like the world is all to blame for not stepping in and helping the Israeli's to destroy the evil of Hamas whilst also helping innocent children (and others) to escape to safety. We should all have our troops on the ground in this situation, and we are all at fault.

@Scirocco given the IDF's propensity for propaganda and failure to report accurate facts in the past I highly doubt their estimate on ratio of Hamas to civilians killed is anywhere close to the truth.

The 16,000 and 6,000 figures are at the lower end of estimates which are considered valid by the UN and WHO.

There are always going to be challenges in accurately assessing how many people who have been killed count as 'combatants'. It will be biased by who's doing the recording of the deaths. Nobody is going to dispute that. But over 6,000 children is horrific. And I've yet to see any estimates of Hamas fighters that suggest that ratio of children:adults among fighters. Which means that the current strategy is disproportionately attacking children.

The most 'favourable' ratio of civilian to Hamas fighter deaths I've seen was 2 civilians for every Hamas fighter killed. That was given by a senior Israeli figure who considered it to be "positive". In war, as I've said, estimates get skewed by both sides, and this figure could be reached through, for example, including anyone male, or anyone who tried to defend themselves or their families when soldiers appeared and they feared for their lives.

As a thought exercise, imagine 3 people, unknown to each other, standing in front of you - to reflect the estimated casualty ratios, make one of them a child and one a woman - now, would you be able to pull the trigger on a gun and shoot all three of those people if one of them was deemed to be a combatant? Would you feel this was ok? This is what's being presented as a "positive" ratio of killing civilians. Many of these civilians have no affiliation with any 'resistance' or terrorist group. They're being killed anyway.

My colleagues did not deserve to die. My friend's family did not deserve to be bombed - nobody should have to pick shrapnel out of a baby's face themselves because there's no way to get to a hospital.

There must be justice for October 7th. What happened was abhorrent. Justice cannot come at the cost of the obliteration of Gaza, the deaths of thousands of children, and even more murder and oppression in the West Bank. Justice cannot be overwhelmed by wrath, or where does this end? The world needs to find another way.

Yes I know far too many children have died and suffered immeasurably these past two months, and will continue to do so after the war eventually ends. I don't think anyone is disputing that, or at least I'm not.

That's not what I was talking about or what I asked though. Where are the statistics coming from, and how many of the dead were combatants?

The reason I'm asking is because the numbers you are getting are from Hamas, a terrorist organisation, who don't distinguish between combatants and civilians. It serves their purpose very well for people to think that no or very few of their combatants have been killed and that all the casualties have been civilian. This is very far from the truth though, and I'm fed up of seeing manipulative lies being spread. It doesn't help anyone.

Also, there are reports from hostages that they were on occasion made to dress up in hijabs etc to escape the bombing. That means terrorists and their hostages were among those fleeing civilians who you say were being executed. So it is targeting enemy combatants, albeit with disastrous results.

I am only saying this to point out that things aren't as black and white as you and many other posters on here, and elsewhere, like to pretend. I am not saying it because I necessarily approve of IDF methods and I definitely don't approve of the outcome. I'm just trying to point out the impossible task Israel has been handed, and asking people to stop taking Hamas information at face value.

Of the 16,000 dead (which is almost certainly an underestimate), over 6,000 have been children.

That's approximately 1 in 150 children in Gaza, and does not include children sustaining life-changing injuries such as traumatic amputations. It doesn't include children sustaining permanent scarring and psychological trauma. It's also likely to be an underestimate - many more children's bodies are likely underneath rubble and unreported if there's nobody left to report that they're there.

Now, Gaza is the most dangerous place in the world to be a child.

Rocket attacks into civilian areas are not reliable ways of targeting enemy combatants. Executing fleeing civilians is not targeting enemy combatants. Denying aid so that the most vulnerable members of a society are most severely affected is not targeting enemy combatants. Killing UN, WHO and MSF representatives who are there for humanitarian reasons is not targeting enemy combatants.

You don’t have anything to say about whether the marches ask Hamas to agree to a ceasefire? I think it’s a reasonable question…

Yes . Since October 7th and the terrible images of Shani Louk and the other victims, I’ve found it very hard to see the conflict in the way I used to see it . Like you, I was sympathetic to Palestinians who have been oppressed for years. I’m still sympathetic to their suffering but After hearing of the full horror of October 7th I don’t have certainty about what would be a moral and just solution. It just all feels apocalyptic and terrifying. The only thing I know is that innocent people are suffering on both sides.

@Katy231
"Their accuracy for Hamas at present is less than 1%."

What does that mean, and where did you get that statistic from? And of the 16000 dead, how many were combatants?

So, any statement made by the doctor led medical division of the Israeli Health Ministry equals lies, any statement made by the Hamas led Gaza Health Ministry equals truth. You’re right, it is laughable. Also laughable- that the mention of a London based Jewish newspaper has riled you so much that you’ve chosen to make this the focus of your ire more than 24hrs after I posted it and many pages after the debate has moved on. @Totallymessed called it.

I've been mostly staying away from reading details of this conflict, but if pushed I would have said I was broadly pro-Palestinian (NB not pro-Hamas), as I think they have been harassed for years by the Israelis, and are now suffering numerous attacks against civilians.

However, a couple of days ago I read an article on the 7th October attacks by Hamas, with gang-rape, mutiliation, torture and mass murder, and it turned my stomach.

I can't see the conflict in the same way any more.

Of course it means both sides put down their weapons. What happens next is negotiation. Hamas have said they will do a deal on the 1967 borders, it is in their charter. There is a peace deal to be done. It wouldn't be easy but with concessions fron both sides it can be done. Not with Netanyahu in power obviously as he has made it clear he will not agree and he is funding more settlers in their West Bank take over but with time, a proper forward thinking leader and with help from the international community both sides can finally live in the peace that they deserve.

You are coming at it from the angle that Israelis are the only people living in daily fear, that applies to Palestinians too who have been terrorised and oppressed for decades by Israel. This isn't a one sided situation. There are 2 of them in it.

Or do you think that if Israel puts away its weapons for good, Hamas will settle down and leave them alone, and all will be well?
How does this work?

I am questioning what you mean by a ceasefire.

Do you mean that Israel should not defend itself against violent aggression? And simply leave its people at the mercy of a violent terrorist regime?

Or are your marches for creasefire directed towards Hamas?

If the marches have the intention of telling Hamas to stop their aggression, so that Israel has no need to defend itself, then I completely agree.

If they are directed solely towards Israel, then you are saying that Israel shouldn't be allowed to defend itself, and allow Hamas to do what it will with the land and its people.

The Jewish Chronicle ? Yeah, very unbiased ffs ! Israel are making up more and more lies as the weeks go by, no credible independently verified sources.
If tens of thousands of men, women and children weren’t being murdered daily by the IDF, it would be laughable.

This
So just march and bear witness to innocent civilian deaths. Whole families wiped out, no one left to bear witness but strangers. Neighbours fleeing, struggling to survive. Blood , death, little bodies wrapped in shrouds, pain, fear anguish

March because British and US public opinion will be pivotal in ending the bombardment.
New York Times’ 5 December “I think U.S. policy has a shelf life of four to six weeks,” said Cliff Kupchan, chairman of the Eurasia Group, who had just returned from a trip to the region. “If this war is still ongoing in January, dissent within the Democratic Party and strong international pressure will probably cause Biden to pressure Israel to scale back military operations.”

March, for your own sake . Because even there’s a tiny chance of bringing the end of bombing even an hour sooner, you are the type of person that cares enough. Because you are like the Jewish people who see the complexity of the situation but choose to march.

Hamas is a terrorist group. There may be some indirect negotiations, especially with so many hostages needing release, but there is almost zero chance that Hamas will be involved in the post conflict administration of Gaza

Both Hamas and Israeli government have violated international humanitarian law. Hamas have been horribly violent, Israeli govt have been violent.
Israelis and Palestinians both have the right to exist. The past is gone, the people, the present is now. Israelis (especially those in the Southern communities) have the right to live without fear of constant rocket attacks and awful massacres like October 7. The Palestinians have the right to live in security and socio-economic prosperity in their own sovereign state without fear of Israeli strikes and being bombed to bits as happening now in Gaza, or murdered in West Bank, detained indefinitely without trial or land stolen from settler extremists

Need leaders on both sides to be brave and guide their people to compromise, dare to trust and make peace. Hamas and current Israeli govt under Netanyahu are not the leaders to do this.

I share the words of a Jewish Israeli peace activist, Ami Dar.

“This conflict is so hard to resolve, I think, because at its deepest it is not about land or specific borders. It is about trauma and deep-seated and well-founded fears. And so it can only be resolved when majorities on both sides believe - truly, deeply, believe - that the majority and the leadership of the other side truly wants to live side by side in some way. That’s a very tall order right now. We are very far from that. But realistically, that’s what it will take. Nothing less than that will break the knot. And this is why every word and every action that brings us closer together, even minimally, is good, and every act or gesture that pulls us further apart is bad.”

I think another one of your comments should be deleted. The IDF is not a proscribed terrorist organisation.
Hamas is.

Sorry should have clarified
I saw you asked about the red arrow yesterday
The BBC did a piece bout it today
Not sure if the link is showing the right part

Oh dear that is actually nearly as bad as the Hamas suggestion if you take into account some of the twitter accounts that are using the red triangle

Yuck

Sorry what question? I ask a lot of questions and can't remember talking to you about whatever this is.

Came across it today