IDF shot a 9 year old boy

Option e. Governments are speaking against what Israel is doing ( Ireland / Spain / France have done it and I believe a few more have also said Israel is not taking all the precautions they should be taking)

You are missing option D. Israel is the best investment the US ever made, if Israel didn't exist they would have had to invent an Israel to protect it's interests in the Middle East.

Why do you suppose that is? Why do governments not speak out against what Israel is doing?

in my view there would be one of three possible answers:
a) there’s some intelligence they’re not sharing widely that indicates this is necessary
b) they know that if the same happened on their land they’d do the same thing
c) they’re all in conspiracy of some kind.

i think C is unlikely- the breadth of people that would need to be involved makes that virtually impossible.
a is also relatively unlikely- especially given the failure of intelligence in the 3rd Iraq war people will be unlikely to accept that explanation.
which I think leaves b as the most likely explanation- at the end of the day, what Hamas has done was SO brutal that the rest of the worlds political leaders accept that they would be doing the same thing. I also think that Israel is probably continually sharing their intelligence about which Hamas targets they’re going for to justify what they’re doing- it doesn’t seem likely that people would accept they’re just arbitrarily killing and destroying- they must be able to show that what they’re doing is pursuing legitimate military targets. So a mix of a and b really. I also think that pro-Israeli lobby groups are funding political campaigns, which I’m sure is also the same for pro-Hamas lobby groups.

@Alexandra2001 I feel the same, I will never be able to view Israel with any respect after this. And I feel sick to the stomach that our own Government refuses to speak out against what is happening.

The extermination of up to 2m people isn't whats happening "all over" its only happening in Gaza.

Its irrelevant what Hamas says it wants to do with the Jews, Putin has said he would use nuclear weapons against the UK, is the correct response that we attack Russia with our Tridents?

My opinion on Israel has changed forever, they are no better than Hamas or any other murderous state/terror group, past or present, tbh what they are doing is worse than what Russia is doing in Ukraine and by quite a bit too.

Civilian deaths in Ukraine, after 20months of fighting - 10,000, Israel is up to 16000 in just a few weeks.

Whats the more shocking is the UK stand full square with Israel, fucking disgusting.

This isn't actually true. Israel talks about a Palestinian state but in reality knows that they have strategically made this impossible. Israel has never been willing to accept any two state solution. They want it all.

I dont know who or what you are referring to, so answering for myself

I read a lot, and I engage a lot. I read books from across a spectrum of authors and involve myself heavily in interfaith and inter race work.

Everyone will always speak their side of the story. All of us have:

• a duty to ourselves to try to get information from all sides of a picture, current and historical. Follow different pages, read different books and newspapers, watch various documentaries
• a responsibility to think for ourselves, outside of only what our race/religion/community is saying and use all the information we have to make informed judgements for ourselves, even if those judgements go against what we grew up believing or if they shake our own comfort zone. I believe all of us are born with a conscience, free will and innate intelligence. Use it.
• try to be on the right side of history in whatever capacity you can

Also: multiple things can be true. You can fight for innocent lives on both sides of a conflict. You can believe two people have rights to a land. You can hate what a govt/set of people is doing without hating a whole people. You can call for end of killing without advocating for destruction of another.

Do you ever question that what you are reading is propaganda?

@MercanDede no worries, it can be hard to follow sometimes on here especially when we all type out quickly. :)

Don’t apologise, it was my fault I was not clear. I was agreeing with the first part of what you said “even if these screenshots represent the truth (hard to say from a screenshot)..” I can see how you would have thought I meant different as my post was a mess 😬

I'm not disputing Hamas put out propaganda, I guess there's no way of verifying these current claims about organ harvesting, either way at this stage. I know an NGO has made a request for it to be investigated.

@MercanDede I'm sorry for misunderstanding. You quoted my quote then said 'You need verified facts that these people said those things, not what looks like hastily put together propaganda' then went on about Hamas so I thought you were disputing that Israeli govt had said genocidal statements. Which I found a little confusing, I hope you understand.

@beigecartoon
”If you look back into the thread, it wasn't me that put the screenshots up, it was someone else, which is why I challenged it.”
Yes, I did note that. I should have given you a clap emoji and made it clear I was agreeing with you. Sorry.

The propaganda isn’t saying that tissues were harvested from everyone without family permission in the 1990s.

The propaganda is saying that IDF right now is intentionally killing only Palestinians, taking their bodies if they are not detainees in prison, harvesting all their organs and then returning bodies empty.

If you look back into the thread, it wasn't me that put the screenshots up, it was someone else, which is why I challenged it.

However if you are in any doubt, there are plenty of verified tweets, videos, statements and more that Israeli officials have said, on TV, on Twitter and on official channels, whereby they are expressing genocidal intent.

It's not hard to find verified sources for these things. Such as this newspaper article outlining many of the statements made.

https://www.newarab.com/analysis/erase-gaza-how-genocidal-rhetoric-normalised-israel

“We are fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly,” Israel’s Defence Minister, Yoav Gallant, said, describing the Israeli military’s response just days after Hamas’ attack. “We will eliminate everything - they will regret it,” Gallant added.

"There will be no electricity and no water (in Gaza), there will only be destruction. You wanted hell, you will get hell," Maj. Gen. Ghassan Alian, who heads the Israeli army’s Coordination of Government Activities in the Palestinian Territories (COGAT), declared.

“There is one and only (one) solution, which is to completely destroy Gaza before invading it. I mean destruction like what happened in Dresden and Hiroshima, without nuclear weapons,” he said.

In another statement, Feiglin said Israel’s end goal should not be to eliminate Hamas, but rather, “Gaza should be razed and Israel’s rule should be restored to the place. This is our country".

Harvesting organs without consent did happen, please see this article from 2009.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/dec/21/israeli-pathologists-harvested-organs

Channel 2 TV reported that in the 1990s, specialists at Abu Kabir harvested skin, corneas, heart valves and bones from the bodies of Israeli soldiers, Israeli citizens, Palestinians and foreign workers, often without permission from relatives.

The Israeli military confirmed to the programme that the practice took place, but added: "This activity ended a decade ago and does not happen any longer."

Hiss said: "We started to harvest corneas ... whatever was done was highly informal. No permission was asked from the family."

It’s not happening all over, not like this. No other war is happening like it is happening in Gaza. Even Putin & Russia is managing not to commit genocide in Ukraine. Other wars where genocide is happening and has been rightly categorised as a genocide like in Darfur, is mild compared to Gaza with people being massacred at a much slower rate with a much smaller proportion of the victims being children.

This is so divorced from reality that I don’t know where to start. Protest when

• most streets are under mounds of rubble so where would you go?
• gathering in large numbers is 100% going to attract hellfire missiles and tank fire from IDF as they think anyone moving en masse is the enemy
• you’re dehydrated, starving and cold, as are your children there are people crying under the rubble- is this really the best time to make a placard and have a leisurely protest? Or should you concentrate on finding water and food and trying to guess which shelter won’t get bombed?

@ Kindatired, I agree pretty much with all of that. Saves me having to say it, thank you.

Anyone can type fake subtitles on screen shots. You need verified facts that these people said those things, not what looks like hastily put together propaganda. Propaganda is rife on both sides in this. I’m not saying only Israel is doling it. Hamas is as well. On the Hamas side is the propaganda that Israel kills Palestinians and steals their bodies to harvest their organs and skin.

What video did you see? The video shows IDF not under attack by anyone, getting ready to hop in the APC after a raid and one deciding to fire on two boys that are running away from them. The 8yr old is shot in the head, his older brother dives behind a car and then while under fire, breaks cover to pull his little brother behind the car with him, leaving a smear of blood behind.

And that Israel citizens will be able to live without freedom post the war. I very much doubt this is the end of Hamas , unless a solution is found to the Problem there will be more deaths from both sides

You can't force peace by killing everyone who disagrees with you, plus a few thousand innocent victims

Even if ethnic cleansing is completed, the conflict will go on indefinitely or a peace process will resolve.Bombing Gaza is completely pointless as well as inhumane.
A 5 year old child with crayons and a map could tell you why no settlement since 1948 could be sold to the Palestinian grassroots. So start by offering a fair share of the land with a workable corridor. Then there would be some hope of the populace accepting a deal and the various terrorist organisations would loose their appeal.
Ordinary people on both sides must acknowledge that they are tired of violence and be prepared to accept compromise. Not the type of compromise where protected by the Iron Dome, they are prepared to turn a blind eye to the shooting of an occasional teenager. I mean the type of compromise where significant concessions that affect day to day life have to be made.
There must be an acknowledgement that while Israel is the spiritual home of the Jewish people, this does not entitle them to physically claim all of the Holy Land. The Palestinians who have been repeatedly dispossessed must also accept the presence of Jewish people, many of whom who have had little connection to the region until the last century, apart from this spiritual connection.
Dialogue, dialogue, dialogue with people who make your flesh crawl, dialogue through intermediaries that are just as unsavoury.
Demilitarisation, de-weaponisation, an end to land grabs, the rule of law - not preferential access to justice for one ethnic group with military law for some, an end to internment without trial, an end to shoot to kill by police and IDF, prisoner release, community policing, empowerment of women, compensation for unlawful deaths and loss of property. Targeted investment, equality of opportunity, parity of esteem.
Even if the IDF catch and kill every single Hamas member, they will just be replaced by some other nascent terrorist group. And despite killing and injuring and displacing thousands of innocent people they have very little to show for themselves .
So my suggestion is that Israel starts to behave like civilised democracy , that they stop this ethnic cleansing and start a peace process.
But it seems revenge and ethnic cleansing have more appeal

The 'current war'? That has been going on for generations?

What are your views about Folke Bernadotte, the UN Mediator in Palestine appointed in1948 and then assassinated by Jewish terrorists for being 'too pro-Arab?

Was that terrorism, or acceptable in order to establish the Zionist state that is now Israel?

Let's be clear, Israel's flag is NOT the 'Jewish flag'. It is the flag of the Israeli state, less than 50% of the world's Jewish population, all of whom are entitled to Israeli citizenship should they wish to live there