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Conflict in the Middle East

To wonder how people justify the west Bank settlements

111 replies

Pizfufffff · 29/11/2023 09:54

I am not an expert on the Israel Palestine issue. I did do my dissertation on the legalities of expansion of Israeli settlements under international law years ago so I have some knowledge of the issue. I have always wondered how people justify the expansion of settlements in the West Bank. This is not to cause an issue or start an argument. I'm genuinely really interested in hearing opposing views.

OP posts:
Quickquestion10 · 29/11/2023 12:33

Xiaoxiong · 29/11/2023 11:26

There is a very illuminating interview with a settler leader in the New Yorker from a week or two ago - I found it fascinating to see her justifications, and how alien her thought process is to me: https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extreme-ambitions-of-west-bank-settlers

What a dangerous woman

TakeMe2Insanity · 29/11/2023 12:23

NoCloudsAllowed · 29/11/2023 10:43

The settlers think they have a god-given right to be there. Their government doesn't stop them.

This

SoLetsSetTheWorldOnFire · 29/11/2023 12:19

There's plenty of people within Israel who don't support them either.

I think many people who live there believe the land was given to them by God so they're entitled to live there. They were there first as it were.

Others may not think this but the land is cheaper (or used to be) or they were given incentives to live there.

stormy4319trevor · 29/11/2023 12:15

@Parkingt111 Netanyahu did not form a coalition with Likud. Likud is Netanyahu's party. Likud is a party opposed to a Palestinian state and that aims to expand settlements. Netanyahu's Likud party received the most votes in 2022. However, that's about all I know!

stormy4319trevor · 29/11/2023 11:55

@Parkingt111 The Likud party (Netanyahu's party) stated these aims in 1977. So anyone who voted for Likud votes for this. Yes, he's formed a coalition with other parties, and I can't say much about that at the moment - as I don't know their founding charters. Maybe someone who knows the history of governments in Israel could help.

Parkingt111 · 29/11/2023 11:55

There was another poster on one of these threads who said they work with a charity that workss with palestinian and Israeli children in the Occupied west bank
I don't think they were a regular poster and I can't remember their name but I would be really interested to know what work they do and if it includes in anyway the topic we are discussing it now
Just putting this message here incase they come across it and see it

Parkingt111 · 29/11/2023 11:50

@stormy4319trevor although that is their aim and they only see a one state solution I'm not sure about the majority of the Israeli population voting for them

Wasn't there quite alot of opposition when Netanyahu formed a coalition government with them?

Il leave one of the Israeli posters or someone with more information to clarify that If I am wrong

HeidiInTheBigCity · 29/11/2023 11:49

Thisusernamenotavailable · 29/11/2023 11:33

I have a friend in a West Bank settlement just over the line. It is an established town or city that has been there for decades now. She lives there because it is cheap. She was brought up in an extremely religious family and thinks the land has been fairly “won” in wars started by Palestinians. Most of her family are still über religious and some live deep in the West Bank where they have to cross Arab villages to get there and be guarded by soldiers. They believe it is their religious duty to live there. They have a very deep fear of Palestinians and believe that every Palestinian would kill them if they had the chance.

There is no debate with these people but I have known my friend since childhood and she is a good person who has been brought up in circumstances and narrative you couldn’t begin to imagine.

The majority of my friends and family in the main part of Israel are against the settlements and very left wing. But they are not religious. It is often tied into religious beliefs and fear, which unfortunately comes across as arrogance and superiority.

Thank you, yes!

"Fear" is definitely a major theme in the entire occupation operation, I would strongly agree! I won't ever forget how I realised at some point that armed-to-the-teeth soldiers standing next to their actual battle tank were, literally, terrified of me (unarmed, extremely European looking, slender and petite woman).

On the face of it, of course, it's factually just ... if not "100% wrong" then at the very, very least "blown out of all proportion and irrational in terms of its extent". Israelis are, statistically speaking, way more dangerous to Palestinians than vice versa (look at literally any metric of your choice).

But in practice, I think it is highly relevant and needs to be addressed if there is ever going to be any resolution to this conflict. You're just not going to give even an inch to someone if you have somehow genuinely convinced yourself that their one and only goal is to kill you and everyone you've ever known and loved - to do so would go against your very survival instincts.

Palestinians, by the way, don't seem to really have this, ... I guess I'll call it "existential panic". Yes, many absolutely do believe Israelis want to kill, torture, maim, imprison and ethnically cleanse them, but on the whole, I have experienced them as "a lot less afraid" nonetheless.

stormy4319trevor · 29/11/2023 11:47

But it's important to remember that the Likud party's stated aim is to eliminate any possibility of a Palestinian state, and to expand settlements as part of this. This is the agenda of the government and is what the Israeli population has voted for.

Parkingt111 · 29/11/2023 11:47

There is alot of injustice done to the Palestinians in the occupied west bank
Going into it would be writing another essay. Unfortunately even those like America who criticise it don't really follow it up with action so i often just see it as empty words
However those who have been following the news of the war will see that president Biden has been mentioning a two state solution almost every few days
This doesn't seem possible whilst most of the illegal settlements remain so it will be left to seen if anything comes out of this

pickledandpuzzled · 29/11/2023 11:47

Ignorant person’s perspective, if that’s what you’re looking for-

I assumed that
Israel is densely populated and needs to expand.
The land was gained in a defensive war with a neighbour.
Strategically/geographically Israel is really vulnerable with a blooming great chunk out of the side.
There would be an obvious advantage to mixed communities of Palestinians and Israelis managing to coexist. (Optimism).

I’ve been lurking trying to understand the situation. Superficially at least, it seems that attacking Israel is an own goal. And I understand Israel following that policy. If only they could be gracious in victory.

I have no skin in this situation, and no previous knowledge. As I say, an ignorant person’s perspective if that’s of interest!

stormy4319trevor · 29/11/2023 11:45

@SpringViolet It's because the WB was part of the partition plan drawn up by the UN to provide space for a Palestinian state. After 1967 war Israel was asked to withdraw to the 1948 armistice lines, security council resolution 242. Without the WB there's no land available for a Palestinian state.

SpringViolet · 29/11/2023 11:38

This is obviously from a Jewish POV but interesting nonetheless regarding media reports of the legality of settlements:

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/myths-and-facts-israeli-settlements?utm_content=cmp-true

I always understood the West Bank to have been part of Jordan, won by Israel in the 6 day war and then offered back to Jordan who didn’t want it back, so Israel were stuck with it. Therefore I never understood why Palestinians say it’s their land? Surely Jordanians gave more of a right over it?

I remember seeing a shocking video of a Palestinian woman confronting a Jewish settler who was apparently ‘stealing’ her land and forcing her from her house, but it turned out the Palestinian family were effectively squatting as the land was Jewish owned with deeds.

Seems to be a lot of propaganda about this.

Myths and Facts Israeli Settlements

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/myths-and-facts-israeli-settlements?utm_content=cmp-true

Parkingt111 · 29/11/2023 11:36

As a previous poster said you will rarely find anyone who will openly support the settlements. And I believe that's because it's one of the issues that has recieved and continues to recieve outright condemnation and criticism from Israel's allies.
The US is very critical of them and the expansion of them under Netanyahu and his right wing party
Infact it was only recently that a frustrated Biden said the US would consider visa bans to the extremist settlers
I think there tends to be a misunderstanding that the majority of Israelis support the actions of the settlers and settlements when I don't think it is the case
It is also a huge hindrance towards gaining a two state solution

Thisusernamenotavailable · 29/11/2023 11:33

I have a friend in a West Bank settlement just over the line. It is an established town or city that has been there for decades now. She lives there because it is cheap. She was brought up in an extremely religious family and thinks the land has been fairly “won” in wars started by Palestinians. Most of her family are still über religious and some live deep in the West Bank where they have to cross Arab villages to get there and be guarded by soldiers. They believe it is their religious duty to live there. They have a very deep fear of Palestinians and believe that every Palestinian would kill them if they had the chance.

There is no debate with these people but I have known my friend since childhood and she is a good person who has been brought up in circumstances and narrative you couldn’t begin to imagine.

The majority of my friends and family in the main part of Israel are against the settlements and very left wing. But they are not religious. It is often tied into religious beliefs and fear, which unfortunately comes across as arrogance and superiority.

stormy4319trevor · 29/11/2023 11:29

@HeidiInTheBigCity Very interesting. I do think the cheaper property, increased space, subsidies and more space are appealing to those who live in settlements. I heard an interview with a woman saying there was more fresh air, more nature and a better place to raise children. So there are economic and lifestyle incentives. I think the intention of 'growing' the territory has always been there, simply because the WB is quite green in places and important for water. Plus the population in Israel will naturally expand and they will run out of space.

Xiaoxiong · 29/11/2023 11:26

There is a very illuminating interview with a settler leader in the New Yorker from a week or two ago - I found it fascinating to see her justifications, and how alien her thought process is to me: https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extreme-ambitions-of-west-bank-settlers

The Extreme Ambitions of West Bank Settlers

A leader of the settlement movement on expanding into Gaza, and her vision for the Jewish state.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extreme-ambitions-of-west-bank-settlers

Pizfufffff · 29/11/2023 11:21

HeidiInTheBigCity · 29/11/2023 11:14

I'm not a settler, settlement advocate or anything of the sort (the polar opposite, actually) - but I have had the extremely questionable pleasure of having come in contact with the more militant end of West Bank settlers more than once.

The way they explained what they were doing to be basically boils down to "the land is ours, so this is where we ought to be".

For a lot of the more extreme types, there are religious aspects to why they think this - but I have, in fact, come across reasonably "secular" arguments a couple of times, too.

Underlying all of it, in my personal experience but also from what I have read, the basic, underlying premise is simply "we have more of a legitimate claim to the land than they do". Underpinning this, you'll then find all sorts of arguments, ranging from the comparatively benign claim that there is simply no such thing as a unique Palestinian identity and "why don't they just move across the river where their kind live?" (which, just to be clear, is an insane mentality and the rhetoric of ethnic cleansing; I say "comparatively benign" in the sense of "at least it acknowledges that people need somewhere to live") to outright supremacy rhetoric that entirely dehumanises Palestinians and is basically indifferent as to whether they just go or die. All of it, however, is deeply routed in a mindset of tribalism, though.

There are many more aspects to the question of settlements, of course, such as the fact that, especially in the areas around Jerusalem, a lot of people simply live in settlements for the economic advantages, such as the fact that the entire political project of Netanyahu has been to make a two-state solution impossible, and settlements are the primary weapon, by which this war is waged, etc. I'm not going to write an entire essay on MN.

... but your question was "how do people morally justify it?", and this is, broadly, what I have heard from the horse's mouth and read over the years.

Fascinating thank you

OP posts:
HeidiInTheBigCity · 29/11/2023 11:14

I'm not a settler, settlement advocate or anything of the sort (the polar opposite, actually) - but I have had the extremely questionable pleasure of having come in contact with the more militant end of West Bank settlers more than once.

The way they explained what they were doing to be basically boils down to "the land is ours, so this is where we ought to be".

For a lot of the more extreme types, there are religious aspects to why they think this - but I have, in fact, come across reasonably "secular" arguments a couple of times, too.

Underlying all of it, in my personal experience but also from what I have read, the basic, underlying premise is simply "we have more of a legitimate claim to the land than they do". Underpinning this, you'll then find all sorts of arguments, ranging from the comparatively benign claim that there is simply no such thing as a unique Palestinian identity and "why don't they just move across the river where their kind live?" (which, just to be clear, is an insane mentality and the rhetoric of ethnic cleansing; I say "comparatively benign" in the sense of "at least it acknowledges that people need somewhere to live") to outright supremacy rhetoric that entirely dehumanises Palestinians and is basically indifferent as to whether they just go or die. All of it, however, is deeply routed in a mindset of tribalism, though.

There are many more aspects to the question of settlements, of course, such as the fact that, especially in the areas around Jerusalem, a lot of people simply live in settlements for the economic advantages, such as the fact that the entire political project of Netanyahu has been to make a two-state solution impossible, and settlements are the primary weapon, by which this war is waged, etc. I'm not going to write an entire essay on MN.

... but your question was "how do people morally justify it?", and this is, broadly, what I have heard from the horse's mouth and read over the years.

eardefender · 29/11/2023 11:03

There is a lot online about them.

Security - this is a valid reason and now more so than ever this will be a justification. The west bank is much bigger than Gaza and has a much greater vantage point over the whole of Israel so this is an obvious reason. The stated aim of Palestinian groups is to kill jews and annihilate Israel, Israeli's would be mad to de occupy. Look how that worked out in Gaza.

legality - this is a tricky and interesting one. Much of the land seems to have no legal ownership. My understanding is that a settler will start to live and build a piece pf ;and and that land has no ownership that can be found. In the UK we have the land registry but this is not the case in the west bank therefore making it easier for someone to pitch up and build and the legal case to remove them is flimsy or unclear. This, i don't think it talked about enough.

The 6 day war and dispute over ownership. Legally the whole of the west bank is Israel. No one else wants this land, i believe Jordan didn't want it. Who would want the security issues aside from Israel.

Cloudysky81 · 29/11/2023 10:52

I’ve always understood they were justified as a buffer zone for security reasons similar to the Golan Heights.
I never really understood why that meant people would live in those areas though as oppose to keeping it as an unoccupied neutral zone.

Nonentity2023 · 29/11/2023 10:51

There’s no valid justification for them.

hydriotaphia · 29/11/2023 10:47

I'll be surprised if even one person comes on to post their own personal views in favour of settlements tbh.

hydriotaphia · 29/11/2023 10:46

"You have no idea about what knowledge people who use mumsnet have on this issue. The OP obviously knows a lot and uses mumsnet! And she/he can ask the question on here if they want to!"

Yes she obviously can ask the question but she's not going to find many people who are massively in favour of settlements on this UK based website. Most people who know anything about settlements in the UK are against them - support for them is almost entirely Israeli (which is not to say that all Israelis support them) and to a lesser extent among Jewish communities in the US. I agree with a PP that I don't know any English Jews who are in favour of settlements. This is just a completely random constituency of people to ask.

NoCloudsAllowed · 29/11/2023 10:43

The settlers think they have a god-given right to be there. Their government doesn't stop them.

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