Just sick

Yeah, I read about this before, the dehumanising of Palestinians in the Israeli education system. It's incredibly sad but like you say they have been primed for this. You can see it in posters here whenever a Palestinian child is mentioned, especially if the person puts Palestinians on a level footing with Israelis, there is anger and barely concealed disgust that someone should suggest that they are equal. I really don't know what the answer is when it is so engraved.

Garbled message as typing when out and about. Yes, it is a problem. A massive one. And I’m not sure how Oct 7 will sway people. There are Israelis who have the ability to introspect and view things critically on both sides (really neither side have covered themselves with glory,) but they are being actively silenced by many, with a lot of slurs going on and a lot of rhetoric used against them, calling them “as bad as the Nazis.” (ie my Jewish family calling other Jewish Israelis this, to be clear.)

After initial furore in our family WhatsApp group and people leaving the group and then Gradually rejoining after Oct 7th, I think things have become calmer but there’s now an unwritten rule that no one is allowed to express sympathy for Gazans lest it offend the Israeli cohort (and our group has Arabs and Israelis in it, as well as two Palestinian Christians.) imagine them not being allowed to express hurt and anger and fear and grief.

when I was face timing my Israeli family members they expressed some vague sentiments about how the rising death toll of Gazans was “sad” but the overall prevailing attitude was “but what can we do when they simply don’t want peace?” Even my niece declared “the Palestinians arent like us though.” She’s a kid. What she meant by this was mystifying and I couldn’t find out further as her mum very sharply interrupted before I could ask, but it’s clear she’s already from a young age decided that the Palestinian deaths are somehow more acceptable as they’re just “not like them.” It’s the typical Israeli priming that happens within their education system, in their media. It’s rife if you look for it and these attitudes start to show.

And its this sort of shrugging off and vague excuses that makes me despair inside for a eventual political solution that doesn’t include wiping Gaza off the face of the earth

@Chaitales and the really sad thing is that this has been going on decades!

I know, it's ridiculous. You can say it as many times as you can - Israels atrocities started decades before Hamas was formed - but there will still be a denial. There are countless interviews, books, documented papers, on Israels horrors, but there is a incredible refusal to acknowledge this.

Agree.

I work with and have plenty of Jewish and Israeli friends, and I have worked in the Muslim-Jewish interfaith face for along time. It was a spoken and agreed rule that we don't discuss politics, just friendship. This always confused me that while yes, as an interfaith group, we don't have power and nothing we say makes changes, surely it would be good to hear each other's points of views and break out of each other's echo chambers. MN has been good for that actually - while we don't agree, atleast we are able to hear others points of views and understand what's happening. Anyway so in the group, there was never the word Palestine nor Israel spoken, and the membership was largely asian/black/arab Muslims but never Palestinians - they were silenced. It was such a pity as an opportunity to actually listen to first hand experiences and expand your own worldview was lost.

I think that this is a huge issue that needs to be talked about but it is very difficult to do without being accused of anti-Semitism. Every day Israelis have been complicit in the mistreatment of Palestinians and the stealing of land by their silence. There are some Israelis that have spoken out, some that do great work but the vast majority have just ignored what has been happening on their doorstep and it isn't good enough.

This isn't me saying that civilians deserved what happened on 7/10 at all, no civilians should be hurt ever no matter which side of the walls they happen to have been born in. The problem is that so long as everyday Israelis sit back and allow the mistreatment of Palestinians, allow the land grabbing none of this will ever end. Israel are the ones with the power in this situation. Israeli citizens are the ones who can say enough now, let's play fair but it has been advantageous for them to just keep quiet so they have and now 1000s of people are dead.

So many people say 'Oh most Israelis don't agree with settlers', so why is it worse than ever? Why are they continuing to let violence happen in the West Bank day after day in their name? Letting children be hassled on their way to school every single day, letting schools be bulldozed, and then not allowing new schools to be built? Just shrugging and letting it all happen? If the majority of Israelis don't agree with it then they need to make that clear instead of sitting in their cozy homes and tutting behind closed doors. It isn't good enough.

Thanks for that. He was brilliant.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/eu-says-no-evidence-aid-palestinians-going-hamas-2023-11-21/

Just putting this here in light of prior comments. Extensive recent EU Commission investigation says no funds going to Hamas, aid going to continue. I trust their judgement.

@Backbutnotready I agree. Unfortunately due to the vitriol expressed to anyone who does not add that caveat into their posts, I still feel the need to add it in, in case anyone tries to smear me with their "you love Hamas" bullshit.

One thing I am surprised about is the way people say "nothing Israel has ever done is as bad as Hamas". Open your eyes people. Plenty of evidence listed here on MN alone.

Couldn’t agree more. Even the Israeli side of my family all say that they’ve pretty much ignored the issue of Palestine for years and choose not to discuss it, it’s like an elephant in the room. And hearing them talk - the “othering” is on both sides, just more sophisticated with the Israelis who genuinely see the Palestinians as sub human and somehow deserving of a cruel punishment.

By your reasoning, if you have never seen something, it doesn't exist? I can't be bothered to even try to explain to you why this is so risible.

They were searching all aid going in - it had to be unpacked and repacked. Didn’t need to be made more difficult and impossible at times -according to Egypt, due to actually bombing the crossing.

Israel have been behaving this way long before Hamas. Not sure how old you are but I grew up in the 80s and every other day you were hearing about killings, border issues and Israeli brutality. You seem to be very selective in your evidence and also you very easily dismiss any poster that points out the actual facts about Israeli control and brutality in Gaza. Your information on the region is very simplistic, naive and wrong. Most posters have a more objective informed view

All the humanitarian aid is security checked by Israel at Kerem Shalom 25 miles from the Rafah Crossing

Even when the UN provided proof that weapons-free aid wasn't falling into the hands of Hamas once it got into Gaza - Israel still refused to budge

Weapon smuggling is only a part of it

For the same reason they are preventing the flow of anything into Gaza- whatever comes in Hamas has control of. They don’t want Hamas to get more to use against them

Yes - but why bomb the only current crossing that would allow in aid?

From Wikipedia.

Exit and entry into Gaza is prohibited by sea and air. There are only three crossings to go in and out of Gaza, two of them controlled by Israel and one by Egypt. According to a 2022 report by the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, the blockade has significantly reduced movement of people and goods due to reduction in number of exit permits by Israel.[2]

Crossings were repeatedly shut and buffer zones were reinstated. Imports declined, exports were blocked, and fewer Gazans were given exit permits to Israel and the West Bank.

exactly the same scenario between uk and France. Where you can’t go to France without French permission. And you can’t enter uk via air or water because France doesn’t allow it. Maybe next time use a better example.

regarding water, maybe if Israel didn’t impose rules about how to collect water and use it as a weapon then gaza wouldnt need to be provided water

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/

One of its most devastating consequences is the impact of Israel’s discriminatory policies on Palestinians’ access to adequate supplies of clean and safe water.

November 1967 the Israeli authorities issued Military Order 158, which stated that Palestinians could not construct any new water installation without first obtaining a permit from the Israeli army. Since then, the extraction of water from any new source or the development of any new water infrastructure would require permits from Israel, which are near impossible to obtain. Palestinians living under Israel’s military occupation continue to suffer the devastating consequences of this order until today. They are unable to drill new water wells, install pumps or deepen existing wells, in addition to being denied access to the Jordan River and fresh water springs. Israel even controls the collection of rain water throughout most of the West Bank, and rainwater harvesting cisterns owned by Palestinian communities are often destroyed by the Israeli army. As a result, some 180 Palestinian communities in rural areas in the occupied West Bank have no access to running water, according to OCHA. Even in towns and villages which are connected to the water network, the taps often run dry.

Israel is not a civilised country. We need to stop pretending it’s a shining beacon of democracy.