“Pause” ends tomorrow. Anyone else filled with dread ?

@twilightmoon3 it's very worrying I agree.

Good to hear we need to increase the peace for everybody's sakes. War gamers always like to surmise that armageddon will start in the Middle East and it's easy to map out a way that that could happen, particularly if Iran gets nukes and Trump returns both scenarios which have a relatively high chance of happening.

@twilightmoon3 honestly I don't see it like that. They print lots of opinion pieces not just one sided and most 'rags' in Israel do. Lots of normal people will be horrified by that.

I am not minimising I am saying it's a country where it's ok to do that. We do it. Owen jones? Netanyahu does not have lots of support. They will be a change.

At the state of play at the moment neither side is making rational decisions. Especially for the good of normal people.

I had to look up what Israel National News is and it is apparently the voice of the settler movement and Israel's 3rd most popular newspaper so it is a mainstream Israeli voice and not some fringe rag. The fact they feel happy to print such a toxic op-ed is probably symptomatic of what Netanhayu supporters on the whole are comfortable with and indeed the pitiless relentless bombing of Gaza bears that out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arutz_Sheva#

@twilightmoon3 that's not very helpful. There are extremists both sides and they have to be handled. He very much does not reflect all Israelis as I imagine those that preach death to all Jews don't reflect all in Palestine.

Dresden the whole damn lot of them -spare no one, men, women, children the guilty and the innocent until they become murderous dogs and turn on their masters. That's what this Rabbi says. https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/381475 Palestians the untermensch.

@ChickHenLittle once again I apologise. I really don't want to upset or offend.

@Wale90 let's agree to disagree.
I am not saying there aren't things on that list that I Don't have an issue with.

I have an issue with the whole genocide thing. Palestinian 1948... 160,000 Palestinians now.... 2 million.

I am always willing to look again at things and consider other views because If we can't what's the point?

At this point were both trying to point score and we're clearly not going to agree or alter each other's viewpoint,

I didn't suggest the Palestinian people had 'more' right to it, I'm aware that historically you'll find both Palestinian and Jewish in the ancient Canaanite population and that prior to Israels creation Muslims, Jews and Christians lived relatively peacefully. However, citing ancient connections to a land does not and should not have given the justification for the ethnic cleansing and massacres of 1948 or the creation of Israel at the expense of the people who had been living their for generations.

I continue to believe it is a system of Apartheid, if your response is that they are not Israeli citizens we should be asking whether this is easy, whether Israel approves all applications, what is their criteria and what is asked of the Palestinians to get it.

Ultimately I have a long list of deeply uncomfortable things about Israel that I think im unlikely to shift on;

Violence and murder in the west bank, including of children.

Arresting and holding without trial thousands of Palestinians - including children as young as 12 - many of who have spoken of torture and sexual abuse.

The blockade on movement of goods in and out of Gaza despite 'leaving'

The control of a significant amount of electricity and water into gaza

Removal and restrictions of fishing rights

Settler violence against Palestinians

Skinbanks/organ harvesting

Theft of homes, sometimes 'fully furnished' from Palestinians

And in recent weeks the withholding of aid whilst people starve on the other side of a fence.

The IDF forcing medical staff to leave patients at gunpoint for their bodies to be found weeks later having died alone and in pain.

All of the above paint a picture of a deeply cruel, nationalistic and racist regime that won't be satisfied until it's ethnically cleansed the remaining Palestinians.

I suppose, the only thing I can ever think to ask people to think about very carefully is if you were a Palestinian, having been born in say 1960 and experienced life in the West Bank along with a selection of my above list how would you feel? Would you believe Israel is acting fairly? Or would there be an uncomfortable moment where you see the actions of Israel differently?

@stomachameleon Listen I do try and think about what I post and have a considered response to most things but I do have family there.
It's difficult sometimes.

I agree you do, and I can empathise with personal involvement making things more difficult to handle. I've had to unfollow a lot of threads for the same reason.

I Don't. (Think it's par for the course although it's happened recently)

Apologies. (And I meant the West Bank) regarding conflict more by way of explanation not Gaza)

The sexual violence thread is getting to me.

Listen I do try and think about what I post and have a considered response to most things but I do have family there.
It's difficult sometimes.

You won't get disemboweled or hung up by a baying mob.

You think this is par for the course in Gaza and the West Bank? 🤦🏽‍♀️

Gaza or the west bank* are all involved in armed conflict

Really? All?

"Baying crowd" is not a term I'd associate with you using @Stomacharmeleon - or even the implication that all Palestinians in Gaza are involved in armed conflict.....

@Parkingt111 Horrific. And some people dare to continually ask why we are making a noise about it!

Peace for all Israeli and Palestinian civilians now. Ceasefire now. Human rights for all.

From Norway

Failure of our shared humanity' in Gaza, says Norwegian Refugee Council
The "pulverising" of the Gaza Strip now ranks "among the worst assaults on any civilian population in our time and age", the head of the Norwegian Refugee Council (NRC) has said.
"Each day we see more dead children and new depths of suffering for the innocent people enduring this hell," says Jan Egeland, NRC's secretary general.
He says that 1.9 million people - almost the entire Gaza population - have been displaced and that nearly two-thirds of homes have been destroyed.

What do you suggest Israel does?

The very 'non bias' people's dispatch...
It's no more 'their ancestral land' than it is for the Jewish population.
How far back do you want to go?

And I don't believe ifs an apartheid state.
The Palestinians living in the West Bank are not Israeli citizens so do not have the right to enjoy the rights of being one. As the Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank are involved in armed conflict and don't recognise Israel as an entity they are treated by the terms of the law of the armed conflict.

The Israeli Arabs living in Israel enjoy all the freedoms of an Israeli citizen. They have ten members in the Knesset. Can form a political party, join the police, the judiciary, the diplomatic core. An anathema to an apartheid state as no racial discrimination. If it was then all Arabs would be treated the same and yet they are not. They are divided by their actions towards the Israeli state.

Do you know anyone living in Israel? Being openly politically critical is not a problem- look at the hostages walking on Netanyahu's home and critical newspapers. You won't get disemboweled or hung up by a baying mob.

Maybe your mixing up areas?

You cannot be both democratic and operate a system of Apartheid. What you mean is that Israel is a democracy for Israelis (and even then, the state sanctioned violence against citizens protesting is putting them on shakey ground). But it is not a democracy for the Palestinians living in it despite it being their ancestral homeland.

"Palestinians living in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem (80% of the Palestinian population) under Israeli control are not citizens and cannot become citizens of the state in which they live, nor can they vote for the government which controls their lives. The other 20% of Palestinians, who have Israeli citizenship, have a 2nd class status."

@Wale90 do you know what democratic means? Why is Israel not democratic?

But we're not claiming hamas are moral or democratic or anything other than a terrorist group, but Israel claims to be both moral and democratic but are by definition a terrorist state right now.

Hamas have no future governing the Palestinian people but the genocide and ethnic cleansing taking place at the hands of Israel under the guise of eradicating them is so easy to see through. They want the land, they want it free of Palestinians...

Gideon Levy a brilliant Israeli humanitarian and journalist writes another piece for Haaretz. One has to hope his views and support is growing in Israel at least some are trying to stop this madness.

The Gaza Strip has been punished enough, far more than it deserves. Its northern section has been destroyed; 20,000 of its sons and daughters have been killed; 5,000 children have died. Even if the IDF’s estimate that it killed 5,000 Hamas combatants is correct, the proportions are horrific. In Ukraine, people would be appalled by such proportions.

Is it really permissible to kill 20,000 people, including 5,000 children, in order to kill 5,000 combatants/terrorists/people involved in the fighting/armed men, however monstrous they are? And would 100,000 civilians also be permissible? A million? “As many as necessary” is the usual response, and it is patently immoral and unacceptable.

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-11-30/ty-article-opinion/.premium/how-many-palestinians-dead-in-gaza-is-too-many/0000018c-1c99-db78-adcc-befde3500000?utm_source=App_Share&utm_medium=Twitter

@paladium you said people weren't engaging and you wanted facts and I gave them to you. Or by facts do you mean emotive drivel on twitter. Oh and opinion pieces.

Just to clarify.

Democracy. Not perfect but a democracy.

@Stomacharmeleon as is your opinion, just that.

@paladium no smear but it's an opinion not a fact.