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Conflict in the Middle East
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Thereissomelight · 28/11/2023 10:14

restabove · 28/11/2023 10:10

@WatTyler ever considered that your posts might be the ones that bear no relation to reality?

I know - it’s almost funny - except for the thousands of innocent children that have been murdered in the last few weeks.

restabove · 28/11/2023 10:10

@WatTyler ever considered that your posts might be the ones that bear no relation to reality?

WatTyler · 28/11/2023 10:03

The Guardian is a disgusting rag that should be shut down. What it prints bears no relation to reality.
Hamas has shown the world that Israel can never be safe while it has murderous psychopaths, openly committed to its destruction and no better than nazis, living next door.
Israel must and will destroy Hamas completely. If their campaign results in the deaths of Palestinian non-combatants that is sad, but war is war and this will not prevent the IDF from doing whatever is needed to ensure the safety of their homeland.

restabove · 28/11/2023 09:47

@Thereissomelight sadly I think yes empty words, at this point. :(

Hopefully the narrative will change but as such a powerful world leader and major ally of Israel I don't hold too much hope.

Thereissomelight · 28/11/2023 09:44

@restabove
I didn’t realise that. Empty words then.

restabove · 28/11/2023 09:32

auberginefortea · 28/11/2023 08:28

I sense from these types of articles that the US and UK and our allies can somehow just "turn off" violence in the Middle East. From what I see, the US and UK have been quite actively pushing for cease fires and a peaceful resolution.

It also worries me that this sentiment plays the ball right into Russia/China's hands. I see both Russia and China making grandiloquent statements about peace, but they both either invaded (or supported the invasion of) Ukraine. They don't seem so concerned about thousands of deaths there.

I disagree. The current bombing campaign could all stop tomorrow if US stopped backing, arming and funding Israel. All they need to say is a firm ‘no’. US has the power. Their weak “please play nicely” is saving face, but little more. I even saw an article yesterday saying US is now increasing the arms available to Israel at the moment.

Sourisblanche · 28/11/2023 09:16

TheaBrandt I agree and it’s so depressing. I’ve been reading a bit about Guernica after it was mentioned in the Picasso documentary on iplayer. I knew a little bit already from when I lived in northern spain as a student.

It was the first concentrated aerial bombing of civilians. I can’t believe that instead of humans learning from this horror, the technique has been used again and again in various countries since and has essentially become a blueprint for destruction.

Thereissomelight · 28/11/2023 08:43

auberginefortea · 28/11/2023 08:28

I sense from these types of articles that the US and UK and our allies can somehow just "turn off" violence in the Middle East. From what I see, the US and UK have been quite actively pushing for cease fires and a peaceful resolution.

It also worries me that this sentiment plays the ball right into Russia/China's hands. I see both Russia and China making grandiloquent statements about peace, but they both either invaded (or supported the invasion of) Ukraine. They don't seem so concerned about thousands of deaths there.

Yes I think so. I didn’t think so at first but I do now. It makes me feel a bit better in some ways but worse in others as it shows how no one can stop these maniacs once they get going.

TheaBrandt · 28/11/2023 08:34

Saw Napoleon last night and made me despair. There is something in humans that craves this violence. Over and over and over again right through history. We need to step back properly recognise this in ourselves and do better.

auberginefortea · 28/11/2023 08:28

I sense from these types of articles that the US and UK and our allies can somehow just "turn off" violence in the Middle East. From what I see, the US and UK have been quite actively pushing for cease fires and a peaceful resolution.

It also worries me that this sentiment plays the ball right into Russia/China's hands. I see both Russia and China making grandiloquent statements about peace, but they both either invaded (or supported the invasion of) Ukraine. They don't seem so concerned about thousands of deaths there.

Thereissomelight · 28/11/2023 08:20

Coyoacan · 28/11/2023 00:50

On facebook I and many Muslim friends have reposted everything I have found about Jewish people protesting what Israel is doing in Gaza and there are so many.

I feel like the Zionists are using the Jews as human shields.

I can’t help wondering about how/why the border was so unprotected on Oct 7.

BlackJumpsuit · 28/11/2023 06:44

ATaleOf0Side · 27/11/2023 22:59

Nice to see that this board (and society in general regarding this conflict of ages) has deviated from what it was majorly meant to be about, which is a space where Israel is lauded and anyone is called anti-semite if they so much as breathe wrong about the Israeli government, to a place where voices from the other side are heard too and the truth is told from both sides.

I notice there's been silence from the initial regular posters on this board who were banding together to do the former.

Yea agreed, I had to keep hiding threads on this board when it started, the cognitive dissonance was so intense.

Coyoacan · 28/11/2023 00:50

On facebook I and many Muslim friends have reposted everything I have found about Jewish people protesting what Israel is doing in Gaza and there are so many.

I feel like the Zionists are using the Jews as human shields.

ATaleOf0Side · 27/11/2023 22:59

Nice to see that this board (and society in general regarding this conflict of ages) has deviated from what it was majorly meant to be about, which is a space where Israel is lauded and anyone is called anti-semite if they so much as breathe wrong about the Israeli government, to a place where voices from the other side are heard too and the truth is told from both sides.

I notice there's been silence from the initial regular posters on this board who were banding together to do the former.

WomanHereHear · 27/11/2023 22:03

Thank you to everyone posting on here ❤️

Primarina · 27/11/2023 21:45

Excellent article. But it also made me terrible sad.

Ixxy1980 · 27/11/2023 21:39

I think that is because of a kind of "siege mentality" taken on by those Jewish posters who are trying to justify the actions of Israel. Part of their defence manifests itself as an automatic belief that any criticism of the state is motivated by a hatred of Jews. This knee jerk reaction can not only be comforting but it can also preclude them from actually having to think about the conflict. "You're just a Jew-hater, why should I listen to your opinions?"

@quiteoldad Yes exactly this!

Lobster7 · 27/11/2023 21:21

Seeing threads on here with people so concerned for the Israeli hostages. Worrying about them, about how they must be so scared and traumatised but not a single word about the Palestinians and the unimaginable horror they are experiencing. Talking about the little 10 month old baby and how they need to get him back home with not a hint of irony, as if there's not thousands of dead, injured, orphaned Palestinian babies suffering horrendously.

quiteoldad · 27/11/2023 21:19

Ixxy1980 · Today 19:31

I’ve also found it crazy how you can’t call out the Israeli government and military without being labelled anti-Israeli or suggested to be an anti-Semite.

I think that is because of a kind of "siege mentality" taken on by those Jewish posters who are trying to justify the actions of Israel. Part of their defence manifests itself as an automatic belief that any criticism of the state is motivated by a hatred of Jews. This knee jerk reaction can not only be comforting but it can also preclude them from actually having to think about the conflict. "You're just a Jew-hater, why should I listen to your opinions?"

I suppose we have to reach out to these people and say “it’s not your being
Jewish that I disagree with, it’s your ideas.”

whilst there are a significant numbver of jews who abhor what israel is doing, I suspect there are more Jewish people than you think who are actually critical
of the state but cannot give outright condemnation because they feel they would be being disloyal.

The number of times it’s been suggested that posters are Jew haters, or antisemites or that their “true colours” are showing, has become tiresome.

curlyrebel · 27/11/2023 20:47

It's been an eye opener for me too. Not just with the government and 'opposition' response, or with the media bias, but the support and justification for Israel's actions amongst the public (including many MN posters).
It's sickened me to my stomach.

At the same time there has been a huge turnout for protests in support of the Palestinians and on social media, which gives me hope. The fact that the media has played down the size of the protests and had to twist the narrative shows that we are still a threat, even if small at this point.

Decisiontimenow · 27/11/2023 20:35

FrancescaContini · 27/11/2023 20:25

@Decisiontimenow I don’t understand any attempts to downplay anything that happened on or has happened since October 7th.

I believe that the campaign group Sisters Uncut made a “downplaying” comment using the word “Islamaphobic” regarding what Hamas did on October 7th.

On the subject of ”downplaying”, I have also read articles about organisations who really really should know better who have not commented - or only briefly - on the brutality of the sexual violence and brutality meted out towards women and girls by Hamas on October 7th. There was an extremely harrowing, eye-opening thread here recently, contributed to by some very knowledgeable MNetters.

That’s unconscionable.

FrancescaContini · 27/11/2023 20:25

@Decisiontimenow I don’t understand any attempts to downplay anything that happened on or has happened since October 7th.

I believe that the campaign group Sisters Uncut made a “downplaying” comment using the word “Islamaphobic” regarding what Hamas did on October 7th.

On the subject of ”downplaying”, I have also read articles about organisations who really really should know better who have not commented - or only briefly - on the brutality of the sexual violence and brutality meted out towards women and girls by Hamas on October 7th. There was an extremely harrowing, eye-opening thread here recently, contributed to by some very knowledgeable MNetters.

Decisiontimenow · 27/11/2023 20:13

FrancescaContini · 27/11/2023 20:03

I’m also really disturbed seeing played out the “pick a side..tribalism” that a PP mentioned upthread. I can’t get my head around people being labelled anti-Semitic or hateful for wanting the bombing of Gaza to stop, permanently. Why is this anti-Semitic? It’s not anti- anyone; it’s pro-humanity.

I also don’t understand why anyone would label any expression of horror or outage at the October 7th massacres as “Islamophobia”. It’s possible to deplore ALL the brutality and senseless killing without “taking sides”.

I haven’t seen the latter but that’s insane. I have seen Oct 7 downplayed in its horror and have challenged people doing so.

We must keep seeking understanding to move on… There is a very good podcast episode on NYT “what Israel needs the world to understand” which I found helpful in terms of understanding that perspective (not necessarily re oct7 alone but more broadly). X

Decisiontimenow · 27/11/2023 20:09

GoodOldEmmaNess · 27/11/2023 19:41

A positive is that Gen Z are looking for footage directly from Gaza as part of informing themselves. They are not relying on what mainstream news is reporting no matter where they live because they know it gets filtered and edited and interpreted. It does give me hope because as the article states, it took months or years, sometimes years after a war had ended before people realised there had been hypocrisy and double standards.

Sadly, I don't think this contrast really holds. A million people demonstrated in London at the time of the invasion of Iraq. It was known and documented at the time, including in the 'mainstream media' that the justifications for it were spurious. The only thing that wasn't known was just how devastating it would be for the region and for the international 'rules based' order.

Gaza is more brutal, more bloody than former conflicts, and playing out at a dizzyingly higher speed, in terms of the rapidity with which the death toll shot up. But in other respects it is more of the same international bankrupcy with which we have become familiar since Iraq, and I don't think Gen Z has any startlingly more constructive reaction to it, let alone a superior information channel to inform them of what is happening. The contrary. What I see on social media is the sickeningly familiar spectacle of issues becoming hyper-polemicised, tribalised, discussed with less and less analytical power, as if the whole point was picking a team rather than trying to work out how this running sore of a conflict should be resolved.

Edited

I am afraid you’re right about a lot of this. Same concerns.

I do think one tangible difference is that the west can see who we’ve been told for so long is the aggressor and for those who look, the majority seems to recognise them as people just like they are. I do believe that radical act will lead to change.
I just hope it happens now before any further violence is inflicted on the people of Gaza, already their suffering is enormous. I hope for an honest broker (Qatar?) to help deliver a real solution everyone can live with with militant Hamas gone.
I hope that Israel recovers from its most recent trauma and rediscovers itself in a way that dispenses with the far right and associated extremes. I pray the Palestinians can also forgive and move past what has occurred and embrace a future where they are free to live in dignity. I hope all are safe and can thrive.

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