"The war in Gaza has been an intense lesson in western hypocrisy. It won’t be forgotten"

@Weddingpuzzle
Agree absolutely.

I blame Hamas and the Israeli government. I support, equally, the Israeli and Palestinian people.

@Weddingpuzzle Couldn’t agree more with your paragraph on cognitive dissonance.

The lack of footage coming from Iraqis within Iraq is why I was saying it took a lot longer for the people of the U.K. to realise the war wasn’t the fight for good against an evil dictator that had been put on all international mainstream news. All I saw was footage from US and coalition military. Everything else that leaked from Saddam’s government was either censored or called propaganda. We bombed a hospital and were told it wasn’t a hospital but was a weapons cache with a cross painted on the roof mimicking an hospital like camouflaged. We bombed a baby formula factory and were told that’s just propaganda it was really a factory making chemical weapons. We bombed every vehicle fleeing Baghdad whether it was military or not and created what was called “The Highway of Death” civilians/soldiers indiscriminately bombed while running away. That full footage wasn’t released, only edited bits showing the vehicles that were Iraqi tanks. It took months of war before protests started and it took years for most of the mainstream news censorship and the whole truth to be exposed to the public.

Today, we have footage coming in real time from journalists in Gaza. Today we have ICRC and UNWRA workers in Gaza reporting on deaths, injuries, starvation, disease. We didn’t have these sources of information during the Iraq war. If all we had was the footage of grainy black and white airstrikes from the air blowing up buildings and the IDF guys showing us heavily edited abd spliced video tours of tunnels and basements (that could be anywhere), it would be almost impossible to object to the war on Gaza as quickly as the public has. There would not be the evidence.

'Most people in the UK know who to blame'.

This sentence sums up the issue. This is what has been puzzling me about posters on here. This self perception of moral clarity and superiority. I don't know who is to blame. I don't think it's one side or the other. I think there are many variables and contributing factors. The lack of any awareness that people can and do have a differing point of view and then an accusation that because you hold a different POV you are a 'useful idiot' or in the minority is dark. Anyone so firmly married to an hypothesis and who never asks questions, just puts out finite statements is suspicious AF. Nobody is the oracle who knows everything.

Asking people to go through the cognitive dissonance of 'We want you to condemn these disgusting animals who attacked, maimed and killed us before we even deem to talk to you then you must also praise and understand our equally disgusting animal response of attacking, maiming and killing thousands. If you don't you are an anti-Semite and if you tolerate this, your children will be next'. It isn't convincing anyone with any ability to critically analyse, they just won't accept it.

Where has the expectation that people will unquestioningly do this come from? The IDF have failed in security (they haven't protected their own people at all), intelligence, propaganda, military technique, human rights and haven't even been able to secure the release of their own hostages and we are meant accept that they are 'the only democracy in the area' and hold some moral prevalence? They are no better or no worse from an outsider perspective.

Exactly. I’m not a history teacher but I can imagine most would shudder at the thought of teaching this area of history especially in certain parts of the UK where there’s a large number of pupils from either or both “sides”.

The UK and US have been standing by this 'democracy' for decades. What have they achieved? Clearly, this method isn't working and just fuels even more hatred and bloodshed.

https://yougov.co.uk/international/articles/47784-most-britons-have-sympathy-for-both-sides-in-israel-palestine-conflict

According to YouGov we are pretty split down the middle when it comes to "supporting a side" in this war. Most people support both.

Divisive rhetoric like that of @Xenia is never helpful.

It's considered too 'problematic' to teach in schools. Which sources do you include and which sources do you exclude? Who sets the narrative?

'sadly'. That's it? For thousands of children blown to bits?

Your heart, if you ever had one, is broken. Perhaps three ghosts will visit over the festive season and remind you of the value of your fellow passengers to the grave.

GCSE history doesn’t touch this issue with the proverbial bargepole. The most recent period of history my children have studied is the Cold War ie until the late 1980s.

I learned nothing of the history of the Middle East at school and the tiny amount I understand now has been cobbled together from documentaries or from reading articles that give background information. I’m sure I’m not alone in this. It’s not through a lack of interest that many people in the UK are not well informed on the political history of the Middle East; perhaps many of us also just don’t know where to start because it seems so incredibly complex.

If you throw in the fear of being labelled anti-Semitic simply for believing that the Palestinian people need and deserve to live their lives in peace and with enough space around them then it’s not surprising that many people are wary of showing an interest in the issue or articulating an opinion. Just my thoughts.

Okey-doke

Most countries and societies seem to have their fair share of awful wars, sadly.

"Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don’t have any kids yourself.".

The UK and USA quite rightly stand behind democracy and will do what it takes to preserve our rights and freedoms and that of democracies like Israel. In war people die - it is terrible but Hamas knew full well what would come. Most people in the UK know whom to blame.

Thank you @flashbac completely agree and with the other posters about how this has really exposed myth of humanity

Thank you for all the posters who have spent their time and energy talking about the Palestinian people and the injustices they have faced, esp in the face of intense arguments on this board

We all know now that human lives are in a hierarchy of rights, that people will close eyes to genocide and suffering because they want to uphold their status quo or refuse to see reality beyond what they want to see, and that dehumanisation of a people is not just possible but championed

Yes, my link works

What rock were you hiding under or why weren't you paying attention sooner?

Because after decades, it becomes overwhelming, the constant knowledge that there are endless conflicts and civilian deaths. The blethering and indifference of major powers. The idea that some children matter more than others.
This one happens to be the current centre stage.
There are 74,000 children trapped in an ongoing war zone in Timbuktu right now. They’ve been under siege since August.

@Backbutnotready
Yes, I’d heard that the Hamas charter isn’t as all-or-nothing as we keep being told but I couldn’t find it.

Israel talks about taking the land too.
And also does it.

I don't think you need to be massively into politics though either. I think even up to GCSE history should give you a good grounding into a lot of the problem.

When I did GSCE history this was not covered in the slightest.

I think most people want to trust that their politicians know their jobs and will do the right thing. So that they themselves can get on with being dentists, care workers, accountants, farmers, what have you. It comes as a shock to realise that in situations like this there is no wise adult in charge.

I also think that there is too much false labelling of opinions and behaviours into what politics you follow. If you’re a leftie you must be this. If you vote Republican you must be that. If you don’t vote at all there must be something wrong with you. I think that basically people are either decent humans who try to help - or at least not hurt - those around them, and those who don’t give a fuck who gets hurt as long as they get what they want. “Collateral damage” is the term they use.

My understanding is that Hamas wants Israel to ultimately vacate ALL of the land within which the state of Israel exists, not just the settlements outside of the 1967 borders, ie that they consider the entirety of the State of Israel to be an illegal settlement that needs to be eliminated. A Palestinian state within the areas outside of the 1967 borders would be a "transitional arrangement" on the path towards that elimination.

I'm not sneering at anyone.

And it's certainly not directed at the OP in isolation.

There are definitely a lot of people coming to this realisation who are middle aged or older.

It's a certain frustration that the Guardian thinks this is somehow a new thing and the general reaction to the article.

I think it's generally indicative of the western bubble we live in which social media has amplified in some cases or led to conspiracy nutjobs because there isn't really a coherent 'officially sanctioned' response to the criticise.

I don't think you need to be massively into politics though either. I think even up to GCSE history should give you a good grounding into a lot of the problem.

Netanyahu told Elon Musk that he wants to see more of the Middle East being like Abu Dhabi, Quatar, Bahrain. Moderate, western-friendly, better standard of living. Maybe in his head he thinks bombing and killing thousands of children will actually achieve this.

Best case scenario is that the post-ceasefire phase will be more moderate with much less killing and much more humanitarian aid. Followed by people’s homes, hospitals and universities being rebuilt and a political solution being hammered out AND ENFORCED.

Worst case scenario is that phase two results in many more deaths - possibly with a total blackout of information, including on X - followed by Israel taking Gaza and its gas reserves for itself and many years of further unrest and hatred to come (which will be blamed solely on Hamas 2).