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Conflict in the Middle East

Detainees, Truce and Agreements *title altered at OP's request*

971 replies

stormy4319trevor · 26/11/2023 15:49

Continuing broad discussion of the release of detainees, hostages and prisoners and the agreements around this.

OP posts:
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BabaBarrio · 26/11/2023 21:15

Trulywonderful · 26/11/2023 20:58

Despite the fact that Hamas has only suffered a few phone blackouts people think they can't somehow communicate with each other and other groups

For a start the tunnels are wired up to old phone lines. This means they can still communicate even when the mobile networks are switched off on them. Also the tunnels don't have much of a phone signal in places anyway

Love the excuses being made for the fact they claim they don't know where children that were kidnapped are. Amazing that people try to blame this on IDF. I mean lots of things you can blame IDF for but this one is squarely on Hamas.

I’m sorry but you’ve gone from stating things as if they were facts: “they had time before the bombing” that I have fact checked as not true to stating things as facts that no one can fact check. How would you even begin to know Hamas has only had a few phone blackouts including these landlines? Do you have a mole in Hamas? This is not verifiable.

I haven’t said a word of blame or who is at fault, kindly do not ascribe those things to me.

Trulywonderful · 26/11/2023 21:11

BabaBarrio · 26/11/2023 21:02

Could I ask you to follow the link to the Israeli military announcement. They were bombing Gaza from the air two hours after Hamas set foot in Israel according to their own reports. This is not some other bombing being fired at Israel and there were not “two days” of time as you are wierdly rewriting history. Israel would not sit on their hands for two days after such an attack.

You said the fact that some could be among the missing doesn’t explain why they didn’t know where everyone was after their attack on Oct 7th because “they had time before the bombing”.

According to Israel, no they did not have this time. I know you tend to believe Israel over any other source, so why is it you cannot believe them this time? Why would Israel say they’d starting bombing on Oct 7th at 9:45am local time when according to you, it was really two days later? Why would the world all have footage of both the Hamas attacks and the start of the Gaza bombing with the date and time showing this is what happened.

I am only saying what happened as you seemed to be rewriting history. That is not making excuses for anyone, especially not Hamas.

If you look at the targets announced and hit in the first couple of days they are missile lurching sites. Just look at news reports and IDF announcements.

Whether you agree with me or not it doesn't matter. They clearly didn't start knocking out big targets or doing serious damage until after the other Arab leaders, PO and politicians had met with them and all spoke hand on it. Israel are not stupid the more friendly Arab leaders and PO had to come to an agreement with them about Hamas before they really went in full guns as it were. The timeline on this if you were watching has been very clear.

BabaBarrio · 26/11/2023 21:10

stormy4319trevor · 26/11/2023 20:48

The time scales are interesting @BabaBarrio I can imagine it being chaotic.

Yes that is my point, it was very chaotic on Oct 7th. There have been a lot of unknowns from the 7th. 1,405 dead revised down to 1200 dead weeks later because Hamas fighters were counted as Israeli victims. Emily Hand reported dead, but very much alive and safely home. One of the Thai hostages, he was also reported by IDF as dead and his body recovered, but him too very much alive and now safely home. Was Israel lying to inflate the number of victims? No. It was chaos. It took weeks for them to untangle things. The chaos of war applies to everyone in a war zone, Hamas isn’t immune to it. A possibility is a possibility.

BabaBarrio · 26/11/2023 21:02

Trulywonderful · 26/11/2023 20:46

The first lot of bombing was at lurcher that started firing at Israel during the pogrom. So before Israel even started firing back. Gaza is well used to this and so are Hamas. In truth they had two days before any real target hit or damage was done.

You do get that you are making excuses for Hamas about not knowing where they hid kidnapped children or about them lying about not knowing, don't you?

Could I ask you to follow the link to the Israeli military announcement. They were bombing Gaza from the air two hours after Hamas set foot in Israel according to their own reports. This is not some other bombing being fired at Israel and there were not “two days” of time as you are wierdly rewriting history. Israel would not sit on their hands for two days after such an attack.

You said the fact that some could be among the missing doesn’t explain why they didn’t know where everyone was after their attack on Oct 7th because “they had time before the bombing”.

According to Israel, no they did not have this time. I know you tend to believe Israel over any other source, so why is it you cannot believe them this time? Why would Israel say they’d starting bombing on Oct 7th at 9:45am local time when according to you, it was really two days later? Why would the world all have footage of both the Hamas attacks and the start of the Gaza bombing with the date and time showing this is what happened.

I am only saying what happened as you seemed to be rewriting history. That is not making excuses for anyone, especially not Hamas.

Reallifelurker · 26/11/2023 21:00

It has always been clear getting rid of Hamas is first priority, then hostages is second and finally making sure Israel has more security long term

I have no idea why people debate this. He has said what his prioritise are over and over again

Well it may be his priority now, it certainly hasn’t been for the past decade or so.

Trulywonderful · 26/11/2023 20:59

stormy4319trevor · 26/11/2023 20:54

You do get that you are making excuses for Hamas about not knowing where they hid kidnapped children or about them lying about not knowing, don't you?

I think the poster is saying that it was chaotic, civilians and other militant groups probably broke through as well - maybe took captives. I don't know either. I think it would be hard to hide anything in such a small space as Gaza, but you are assuming something I think not intended?

I get what you are saying but it just doesn't add up. Especially after everything Qatar has been saying and implying about the negotiations too

Trulywonderful · 26/11/2023 20:58

Despite the fact that Hamas has only suffered a few phone blackouts people think they can't somehow communicate with each other and other groups

For a start the tunnels are wired up to old phone lines. This means they can still communicate even when the mobile networks are switched off on them. Also the tunnels don't have much of a phone signal in places anyway

Love the excuses being made for the fact they claim they don't know where children that were kidnapped are. Amazing that people try to blame this on IDF. I mean lots of things you can blame IDF for but this one is squarely on Hamas.

stormy4319trevor · 26/11/2023 20:54

You do get that you are making excuses for Hamas about not knowing where they hid kidnapped children or about them lying about not knowing, don't you?

I think the poster is saying that it was chaotic, civilians and other militant groups probably broke through as well - maybe took captives. I don't know either. I think it would be hard to hide anything in such a small space as Gaza, but you are assuming something I think not intended?

OP posts:
stormy4319trevor · 26/11/2023 20:48

The time scales are interesting @BabaBarrio I can imagine it being chaotic.

OP posts:
Trulywonderful · 26/11/2023 20:46

BabaBarrio · 26/11/2023 20:41

Are you sure they had time? There was only two hours between when Hamas first went into Israel and Israel started bombarding Gaza. Israeli military said at 7:40am (04:40 GMT) that Palestinian fighters had crossed into Israel. At 9:45am (06:45 GMT) blasts were heard in Gaza and at 10am (07:00 GMT) Israel’s military spokesperson said the air force was carrying out attacks in Gaza.

All released hostages we have heard accounts from have reported it taking a lot more than two hours from attack to them being forcibly transported from Israel into Gaza.

So when was all this time?

The first lot of bombing was at lurcher that started firing at Israel during the pogrom. So before Israel even started firing back. Gaza is well used to this and so are Hamas. In truth they had two days before any real target hit or damage was done.

You do get that you are making excuses for Hamas about not knowing where they hid kidnapped children or about them lying about not knowing, don't you?

Trulywonderful · 26/11/2023 20:42

Reallifelurker · 26/11/2023 20:31

There is also a real possibility some of the hostages and their captors are among the estimated 7,000 missing people buried under the rubble of the bombings.

Certainly possible.

Some suspected getting the hostages back was not really Netanyahu’s priority. Like the hostages families for a start..

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/26/survival-scandal-a-secret-cell-how-the-nail-biting-israel-hamas-hostage-deal-was-done

It has always been clear getting rid of Hamas is first priority, then hostages is second and finally making sure Israel has more security long term

I have no idea why people debate this. He has said what his prioritise are over and over again.

If he negotiated with Hamas too softly over hostages then he would have endangered more civilians long term too. No government will negotiate if it means you put more civilians at risk of kidnapping in the long run. He is playing the long game. This conflict will go on for months yet according to him. They won't leave Gaza in the next year at least from what he says.

I think people need to understand what his third priority is and what it actually means. Israel doesn't mind looking like the bad guys so long as they have more security long term. How that is planned to happen is the question.

BabaBarrio · 26/11/2023 20:41

Trulywonderful · 26/11/2023 20:34

Interesting idea. However it doesn't explain how they don't know who took them on 7th October. The hostages were taken and they don't know for sure how many apart from what Israel tell them according to them. They originally said they only had soldiers etc

Even though I have no doubt some hostages could have been killed in bombing. They had time before the bombing to work out who they had and where they were being kept. This means they either didn't care about the children hostages and women or they are lying now. One or the other because what they are saying doesn't add up. Qatar seems to have a similar view to myself on this matter and they are talking with Hamas to negotiate.

Are you sure they had time? There was only two hours between when Hamas first went into Israel and Israel started bombarding Gaza. Israeli military said at 7:40am (04:40 GMT) that Palestinian fighters had crossed into Israel. At 9:45am (06:45 GMT) blasts were heard in Gaza and at 10am (07:00 GMT) Israel’s military spokesperson said the air force was carrying out attacks in Gaza.

All released hostages we have heard accounts from have reported it taking a lot more than two hours from attack to them being forcibly transported from Israel into Gaza.

So when was all this time?

Photos: Israel army launches air attacks on Gaza

Hundreds of residents in the Gaza Strip have fled their homes to move away from the border with Israel.

https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2023/10/7/photos-israel-army-launches-air-attacks-on-gaza

Reallifelurker · 26/11/2023 20:41

Interesting idea. However it doesn't explain how they don't know who took them on 7th October. The hostages were taken and they don't know for sure how many apart from what Israel tell them according to them. They originally said they only had soldiers etc

If you ask me it’s unlikely Hamas don’t know where the other hostages are. Either they’re dead and Hamas doesn’t want to admit it or they’re holding them back.

BabaBarrio · 26/11/2023 20:34

stormy4319trevor · 26/11/2023 20:26

I think Albanese's view is valuable context @BabaBarrio It is true that the regime in the OT has been brutal. I think it's fine to say that, while also caring for ordinary people attacked on Oct 7th.

Thank you. I am catching up on the thread, and thought I’d add it as I missed a bit of the detention discussion. Francesca Albanese is the the UN expert. She is a human rights lawyer specialising in international law including war crimes. So when she says something is an apartheid system, she is speaking not as a journalist, or an activist, or a politician but as an expert who has degree level qualifications and an entire career in the area.

Trulywonderful · 26/11/2023 20:34

BabaBarrio · 26/11/2023 20:26

There is also a real possibility some of the hostages and their captors are among the estimated 7,000 missing people buried under the rubble of the bombings.

Interesting idea. However it doesn't explain how they don't know who took them on 7th October. The hostages were taken and they don't know for sure how many apart from what Israel tell them according to them. They originally said they only had soldiers etc

Even though I have no doubt some hostages could have been killed in bombing. They had time before the bombing to work out who they had and where they were being kept. This means they either didn't care about the children hostages and women or they are lying now. One or the other because what they are saying doesn't add up. Qatar seems to have a similar view to myself on this matter and they are talking with Hamas to negotiate.

Reallifelurker · 26/11/2023 20:31

There is also a real possibility some of the hostages and their captors are among the estimated 7,000 missing people buried under the rubble of the bombings.

Certainly possible.

Some suspected getting the hostages back was not really Netanyahu’s priority. Like the hostages families for a start..

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/26/survival-scandal-a-secret-cell-how-the-nail-biting-israel-hamas-hostage-deal-was-done

Survival, scandal, a secret cell: how the nail-biting Israel-Hamas hostage deal was done | Israel-Hamas war | The Guardian

Weeks of precarious talks finally led to Friday’s releases of captives. Here’s the inside story

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/26/survival-scandal-a-secret-cell-how-the-nail-biting-israel-hamas-hostage-deal-was-done

BabaBarrio · 26/11/2023 20:31

Reallifelurker · 26/11/2023 20:26

Especially children who were held hostage alone, like Emily Hand
I was honestly bracing myself for her to be dead. So pleased to see her re-united with her father. You shouldn’t do that to a child. Bad enough to do it to adults.

I was too. We try and protect children from this and it’s been heartbreaking seeing all the trauma to Israeli and Palestinian children.

BabaBarrio · 26/11/2023 20:28

stormy4319trevor · 26/11/2023 18:36

I wonder why they release Palestinians so late at night?

It’s part of the truce. Nethanyu agreed to only release Palestinians after each group of hostages reach Israel and have had their identity verified. As much as he gets criticised, this is something that I’m not critical of at all. It’s right for Israel to be cautious.

Reallifelurker · 26/11/2023 20:26

Especially children who were held hostage alone, like Emily Hand
I was honestly bracing myself for her to be dead. So pleased to see her re-united with her father. You shouldn’t do that to a child. Bad enough to do it to adults.

stormy4319trevor · 26/11/2023 20:26

I think Albanese's view is valuable context @BabaBarrio It is true that the regime in the OT has been brutal. I think it's fine to say that, while also caring for ordinary people attacked on Oct 7th.

OP posts:
BabaBarrio · 26/11/2023 20:26

Trulywonderful · 26/11/2023 19:59

Last I heard they are saying they can't be certain of which groups and who they have.

Also I think in some cases if some hostages got killed by Hamas fighters they will probably try and say others were holding them or have killed them. It doesn't really follow the current narrative to admit any of their own men killed hostages.

Basically we will just have to wait and see. Plus the released hostages will have bits of information about any other hostages they may have seen.

There is also a real possibility some of the hostages and their captors are among the estimated 7,000 missing people buried under the rubble of the bombings.

Reallifelurker · 26/11/2023 20:24

“The mass and arbitrary deprivation of liberty that Palestinians have been collectively subjected to for decades aims to protect Israel’s annexation of Palestinian territory, a project with unlawful aims pursued by unlawful means,” Albanese said.

It does seem like it’s a way of keeping the Palestinians down than punish wrong doing per se.

After all* *waving a Hamas flag is a foolish thing to do but there’s only so much you can do to the flag waver if that’s all they’ve done. If you investigate and they’re not a terrorist just a punk then you have to let them go. Much easier (and more intimidating) to just lock them up and not bother investigating anything.

BabaBarrio · 26/11/2023 20:18

I am happy to see more women and children going free. Especially children who were held hostage alone, like Emily Hand. I am also glad to see that the hostages of Hamas have all been in good physical health and there are no reports of torture/rape.

I am similarly happy to see Palestinian women, some who have been in prison since they were children going home to their families. As well as the teenage boys some of whom had been in months of administrative detention.

More happiness is what Israel and Palestine both need. I am wishing every night the truce will be extended and then be a ceasefire afterwards.

The Pope said that any side who refuses to come to the table to talk and find a solution, isn’t interested in peace. Maybe they will give his words a bit of weight.

Trulywonderful · 26/11/2023 20:14

Somebody doesn't like how the conversation is going then

BabaBarrio · 26/11/2023 20:12

Note written before October 7th:

GENEVA (10 July 2023) – Israel’s military occupation has morphed the entire occupied Palestinian territory into an open-air prison, where Palestinians are constantly confined, surveilled and disciplined,” a UN expert said today.
“Over 56 years, Israel has governed the occupied Palestinian territory through stifling criminalisation of basic rights and mass incarcerations,” said Francesca Albanese, UN Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian Territory occupied since 1967, in a new report to the Human Rights Council.
“Under Israeli occupation, generations of Palestinians have endured widespread and systematic arbitrary deprivation of liberty, often for the simplest acts of life and the exercise of fundamental human rights,” Albanese said. Without condoning violent acts that Palestinians may have committed during decades of Israel’s illegal occupation, most of their criminal convictions have resulted from a litany of violations of international law, including due process violations, that taint the legitimacy of the administration of justice by the occupying power.
The report finds that since 1967, over 800,000 Palestinians, including children as young as 12, have been arrested and detained under authoritarian rules enacted, enforced and adjudicated by the Israeli military. Palestinians are subject to long detention for expressing opinions, gathering, pronouncing unauthorised political speeches, or even merely attempting to do so, and ultimately deprived of their status of protected civilians. They are often presumed guilty without evidence, arrested without warrants, detained without charge or trial and brutalised in Israeli custody.
“Mass incarceration serves the purpose of quelling peaceful opposition against the occupation, protecting the Israeli military and settlers, and ultimately facilitating settler-colonial encroachment,” the Special Rapporteur said.
“Bundling Palestinians as a collective “security threat”, Israel has used draconian military orders to punish the exercise of basic rights. These measures have been used as tools to subjugate an entire population, depriving them of self-determination, enforcing racial domination and advancing territorial acquisition by force,” she said.
Albanese noted that Israel’s “carceral regime” haunts Palestinian life even outside prisons. Blockades, walls, segregated infrastructure, checkpoints, settlements encircling Palestinian towns and villages, hundreds of bureaucratic permits and a web of digital surveillance, further entrap Palestinians in a carceral continuum across strictly controlled enclaves.
“The widespread and systematic arbitrariness of the occupation’s carceral regime is yet another expression of the apartheid imposed on the Palestinians and strengthens the need to end it immediately,” the UN expert said.
“The mass and arbitrary deprivation of liberty that Palestinians have been collectively subjected to for decades aims to protect Israel’s annexation of Palestinian territory, a project with unlawful aims pursued by unlawful means,” Albanese said. “This macroscopic violation of fundamental principles of international law cannot be remedied by addressing some of its most brutal consequences. For Israel’s carceral regime to end, and its inherent apartheid with it, its illegal occupation of Palestine must end,” she said.
Albanese called on Member States to uphold their obligations not to aid or recognise Israel's settler-colonial occupation and incremental annexation, and use all diplomatic, political and economic measures under the UN Charter to bring it to an end and make sure its architects are brought to justice.
ENDS
Francesca Albanese is the Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian Territory occupied since 1967
The Special Rapporteurs are part of what is known as the Special Procedures of the Human Rights Council. Special Procedures, the largest body of independent experts in the UN Human Rights system, is the general name of the Council’s independent fact-finding and monitoring mechanisms that address either specific country situations or thematic issues in all parts of the world. Special Procedures experts work on a voluntary basis; they are not UN staff and do not receive a salary for their work. They are independent from any government or organisation and serve in their individual capacity.

https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/hrcouncil/sessions-regular/session53/advance-versions/A_HRC_53_59_AdvanceUneditedVersion.pdf