People With Very Strong or Definite Views on the 'Right' Side

This is one of the better threads I have read on mumsnet. I would describe myself as pro Palestinian and went to my first march today which was local to me. This was an opportunity to march alongside like-minded people and also raise awareness of the plight of the Palestinians. The speeches spoke of humanity towards both sides and the equal values of lives. This I feel is so important. There are many on here who mourn October 7 and the hostages yet are silent on the plight of the Palestinians who have been suffering for years and Palestinian hostages which include children detained for years without charge and treated appallingly. A good start to peace would be humanity and an equal application of law to both sides.

See above for who I am and where I come from/stand now.

I can get behind pretty much all of what you're saying. Just not the bit about the IDF! Israelis tend not to know this (and, I suppose, there must be method in the madness, I suspect the gratuitous cruelty is being kept from them on purpose because ... how could people sleep at night?!). The IDF are absolutely no less cruel than Hamas! They kidnap, torture, randomly terrorise and, yes, sexually abuse people all the fucking time!

One of the worst days of my life, ever, was when they randomly grabbed my friend, X, and made him kneel - handcuffed and blindfolded - for hours. Eventually, I couldn't bear it anymore, so ... holding my British passport, hands above my head, and shouting loudly "don't shoot, I'm a British citizen, and I am just going to check on my friend" ... I approached. And the fuckers shot in front of my feet with live ammunition! Not to kill, to be clear - they could have killed me, or him, on the spot - but to scare me off. Well, they didn't! I guess they would have shot me, had it not been for someone in command realising just how atrocious the optics of "tiny blonde British woman shot to death for going to check on a victim of a human rights violation" would be. Had it not been for people actually filming.

Years later, the same IDF (different soldiers, obviously) taunted me that I had better "be nice to them" if I wanted them to let my husband go. They were holding him outside at 50 degree temperatures. For the crime of "being Palestinian" as we were just ... trying to get from Nablus to the Dead Sea for a fun day out! He was a British citizen by then (we were living in England and had just come to see the family).

Again, I agree with everything else you say. But, as for the IDF: they are no better than Hamas as far as the killing and gratuitously torturing people goes. They just get to do their killing, degrading, and torturing under the mantle of being a "state actor". "Most moral army" my arse!

Again ... everything else you say, I actually agree with. But the IDF are fucking horrible!

@Limeandsodaontherocks My views are pretty moderate (I think)! Well they don't feel entrenched anyway. I'm ethnically Jewish but not practising. Maybe I'd be more one-sided if I was religious or if my DH and kids were Jewish too and therefore possibly more of a target, but I don't think so.

I will however argue to my last breath for Israel's right to exist as a Jewish homeland, so I'm a Zionist in that respect (and if you think that makes me evil then so be it, I'm not going to get into an argument about what Zionism actually means to many UK Jews and how the word has been bastardised). So if I'm being honest, I have a natural Israel bias. However, it's bringing up some really complex feelings because I am genuinely horrified seeing what's happening to civilians in Gaza. And settler aggression infuriates me - I've long wished they would just fuck off out the West Bank and let Palestinians live their lives there in peace.

But my feelings on this are coming into direct collision with how much explicit antisemitism I'm witnessing, which has been absolutely jaw-dropping (and increasing in Europe for quite a few years now long before 7/10). I'm a lefty, so it's been pretty hard seeing so much of it coming from the left. My views on the protests are wholly negative now to be honest. Until the last week I didn't want them to stop but I do now. It's causing huge anxiety to the Jewish community. And seeing so much bad-faith posting and outright hate from some pro-Palestinian MNetters towards Jewish MNetters has been pretty challenging to say the least. (I could say a whole load more about that but won't). But having said that, I also really struggle with some of the more hawkish pro-Israel posters - Jewish and non-Jewish - because their views often feel so far removed from mine. I suppose in the same way I'm always going to clash with right-wingers in general about all sorts of issues. But it's quite simple for me - an Israeli and Palestinian life has equal value, and diplomacy can be the only way out of this.

So it's challenging to deal with what sometimes feels like quite conflicting views. I have always firmly believed in a 2 state solution and a change of govt in Israel is an urgent necessity. But fuck me, neither of these are looking very likely. Hamas absolutely need to be eliminated. I know what people think of the IDF but the brutality of Hamas is something altogether different. The blatant disregard and minimising of how absolutely disgusting events were on Oct 7 has been pretty appalling to see. How we get rid of Hamas I've no idea. I do support a ceasefire, although understand why others don't given potential ramifications. I don't know what the death toll is now in Gaza, maybe 14,000? There is not justification for that, none.

Thanks for this interesting thread, it seems good natured (so far)! @miniaturepixieonacid

This is what I believe Palestinians and Israelis should have, in equal measure:

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

Article 1 Right to Equality
Article 2 Freedom from Discrimination
Article 3 Right to Life, Liberty, Personal Security
Article 4 Freedom from Slavery
Article 5 Freedom from Torture and Degrading Treatment
Article 6 Right to Recognition as a Person before the Law
Article 7 Right to Equality before the Law
Article 8 Right to Remedy by Competent Tribunal
Article 9 Freedom from Arbitrary Arrest and Exile
Article 10 Right to Fair Public Hearing
Article 11 Right to be Considered Innocent until Proven Guilty
Article 12 Freedom from Interference with Privacy, Family, Home and Correspondence
Article 13 Right to Free Movement in and out of the Country
Article 14 Right to Asylum in other Countries from Persecution
Article 15 Right to a Nationality and the Freedom to Change It
Article 16 Right to Marriage and Family
Article 17 Right to Own Property
Article 18 Freedom of Belief and Religion
Article 19 Freedom of Opinion and Information
Article 20 Right of Peaceful Assembly and Association
Article 21 Right to Participate in Government and in Free Elections
Article 22 Right to Social Security
Article 23 Right to Desirable Work and to Join Trade Unions
Article 24 Right to Rest and Leisure
Article 25 Right to Adequate Living Standard
Article 26 Right to Education
Article 27 Right to Participate in the Cultural Life of Community
Article 28 Right to a Social Order that Articulates this Document
Article 29 Community Duties Essential to Free and Full Development
Article 30 Freedom from State or Personal Interference in the above Rights

All citizens, regardless of ethnicity or religion, should have the right to peaceful existence, safety, homes, equal human rights and respect. No inequality.

I'm a B - white British (and, for the record, a confirmed atheist!), but I was married to a Palestinian man for over a decade, and I used to live on the West Bank. Still have many lovely friends who are Palestinian, speak with them several times a week! I've known numerous Palestinians who've been either killed or imprisoned - some of them on the most ridiculous charges (or just never charged at all).

I also spent several years working for an Israeli company.

I've every empathy for Israeli civilians, no problem at all! I love Israeli leftist activists (and Palestinian ones, FWIW), they have taught me and inspired a lot of how I think about the conflict. As for the Netanyahu government and the IDF? I regret being an atheist when it comes to those people, because it means I don't believe in a hell for them!

And, no, I'm not a Hamas supporter - as a matter of fact, I already disliked them when Netanyahu still thought they were brilliant and "an asset". Mostly because of ... exactly that! In this one sense, I do agree with the war criminal!

I’m so sorry PurpleChrayne.

One of the interesting things about this thread is that it’s encouraging people with more moderate views to speak up . I’ve seen plenty of “ strong and definite” views on other threads … ..

It's the same reason most of the world eventually united in speaking out against South Africa. When you see a group being oppressed for generations people build up networks and groups and movements form in sympathy over decades. Palestine has linked in with political groups worldwide who sympathise with their cause over the years.

@Sussurations Thank you for your post. As a left wing Jew I’ve found it really depressing.

I think there is such a blind spot on the part of some left wingers that their intense obsession with Palestine is quite frankly weird, when there are endless conflicts across the world. Civilians, including children are dying horribly across the globe. And that leads to the obvious question - if it’s not anti Semitism what is it??

@PurpleChrayne I just saw your post, and I am also very sorry to hear of these tragedies. It is a deeply painful time for Jewish people and the loss of innocent life is terrible.

Am an atheist living in Canada so geographically far removed but have Israeli friends living in Tel Aviv.
I’m pro the Israeli and Palestinians people and for their rights to their own land but am anti Hamas and the Israeli government.
I’d hope that no one thinks that an Israeli life is worth more than a Palestinian one and vice versa?

I am c, broadly pro-Israel because antisemitism is a scourge and Jewish people should have a homeland.

What is happening to civilians in Gaza is a tragedy and I have empathy for everyone who is suffering in this terrible conflict. I do think that Hamas should be absolutely rooted out.

As an instinctively left-leaning person I am deeply saddened by the relentless focus of some on the left on Israel as uniquely oppressive, on Gaza as a focus of campaigning, and the antisemitism that runs through it all. I loathe the virtue signalling I see from people who just want to feel good about themselves (eg on social media not specifically on MN) and the lazy assumptions in my social groups that of course anyone who’s not a die-hard right-winger is ‘pro-Palestine’ - in fact, anti Israel.

I am grateful to all those MNers who are willing to approach the topic respectfully. Thank you.

100% agree!
Yep

A brilliant post. It’s people like you who will help bring about peace 🙏

I'm Christian and agree with the Pope on the need for a ceasefire. My friends and family are of all faiths and none, including Jewish and Muslim. I feel the decades long suffering of Palestinians is a massive injustice, and first paid attention to the issue when the American, Rachel Corrie, was crushed to death by an Israeli bulldozer. Since then, I have been horrified by the shooting of civilians, children and journalists, and the slow creep of Israeli control over the whole territory. I strongly feel Israel should withdraw to the 67 borders, perfect their security, and allow Palestinians to live free from oppression, discrimination and occupation, I'm also horrified that the current government seems to have no interest in doing so.

I'm a British Jew married to an Israeli.

I have very strong views that this war is necessary to rid the world of Hamas and to approach some sort of long-term solution to this generations-long issue of statehood for both the Jews and the Palestinians.

I am horrified (but not exactly surprised) at the rise in Anti-Semitism, and the lack of sympathy for the hostages. The rabid anti-Israel sentiment on Mumsnet; the vitriol of certain posters whose names I see come up time and again on these threads. The fact that there isn't outcry about other global conflicts and issues such as the Afghan refugees. How people don't seem to understand that Hamas want all Jews dead; that is the only genocide in this issue.

My friend's twins were murdered on kibbutz Be'eri. My husband's childhood friend was taken hostage from the music festival. Every Jewish person I know is affected - either they know someone who was killed or kidnapped. It all feels very personal.

Actually I was wrong that Israel would have helped rid Gaza of Hamas. It seems they were the ‘best’ of a bad bunch according to this very interesting summary from before the current conflict:

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/why-israel-is-stuck-with-hamas/

@stormy4319trevor thank you

@miniaturepixieonacid oh no don't worry I'm sure you didn't
It's actually a very interesting thread to so thank you for starting it

I wouldn't say it's mainly about religion. It's about land. Israel has been breaking the 1967 deal for decades, stealing land in the West Bank and keeping the people of Gaza under siege since the mid 00s.

Same as the northern Ireland conflict wasn't actually about religion though it was often described as such. Again, it's about land and the right to self determination.

Christrian, support Israel and Democracy as indeed does the UK and USA.