People With Very Strong or Definite Views on the 'Right' Side

@MrTiddlesTheCat just wow. The irony of your post.

I have no doubt that horrific things happened, they always do in war. But with this particular war there's a determined effort to reframe the aggressors as the victims.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/5/15/the-nakba-five-palestinian-towns-massacred-75-years-ago

Have a read of this. Some may have been killed in the way you describe but some of the stories horrifically describe peaceful civilians brutally murdered.

I'm not saying Jews don't deserve to live in peace, but 15,000 Palestinians were killed in 1948 to "allow" this.

Palestinians died in 1948 because the arab states decided to attack Israel. They were the aggressors. You can't start a war and then bleat about the consequences of the war you started.

I went to a local march organised by a number of groups. This one included a Palestine solidary group, socialist worker party and Marxist society among others so they have there own political angles but united in calling for a ceasefire.
Speeches spoke of the plight of the Palestinians and how a pause does not go far enough. There was definite frustration at the lack of accountability that the Israeli government is held to particularly with its track record of breaking international and humanitarian law. There was anger at the many civilian casualties. There was also criticism of middle East leaders and their lack of action. So overiding feeling I got was people are dying in their hundreds and thousands, how is this ok or justified. That we are here today to use our voices to show we care.
I would not call it a hate march and have commented on previous threads and posters trying to do this. It was a march for peace to show solidarity and support for the Palestinians and raise awareness as there were was much curiousity in the middle of the city centre on a Saturday afternoon! There were no incidents and many joined the demo as we walked.
Regarding anti semitism, I would say no. Placards that were hand made spoke of genocide and war crimes by the Israeli government and IDF.

One thing I've found very interesting the more I've read and watched about the history is how moderate Israeli voices over the decades seem to have been repeatedly undermined and sidelined by hard liners who have been obsessed with settlement building and pushing Palestinians out.

I sometimes find myself wondering how the situation would be different now if more tolerant and inclusive people were calling the shots. My gut says that they'd not have created the sort of boiling pot that Gaza is now

This.

If Rabin had lived and the two state solution implemented then maybe Hamas would never of taken hold.

As I understand it the Oslo accords required the PA to ensure no terrorists set up camp in the Palestinian territories (a problem Israel anticipated). Instead we get an extra right wing government that tolerated the presence of terrorists because they were playing silly power games.

It's impossible to overstate just how much of a tragedy the loss of Rabin was.

@etmoiandme and @HeidiInTheBigCity
Both great posts, from opposing “sides”

@Parkingt111
I love your reply and have followed many of your posts.

@HeidiInTheBigCity Thanks for your comments and I do appreciate your points. That must have been a really frightening experience!

Agree.

I could have written this post.

I’m anti Israeli government. I fully believe and see them as terrorists. I believe anyone that supports their narrative has the mindset of a terrorist too. I am not antisemitic, but I can’t tolerate people telling me that being pro Palestine makes me pro Hamas. It doesn’t.

At the start of the war, people were asking pro Palestinians to condemn Hamas, but no pro Israeli was willing to condemn the idf. For me both are the same. I also cannot justify or agree with people saying that the Israeli government killing civilians is an act of self defense. No it isn’t. It’s genocide. I want the jeering people to have a homeland, but I also want the Palestinians to have an equal homeland and not be forced to live in slums just to make way for another group of people. Because that is racism and I don’t side with racists.

Before this thread gets derailed with inflammatory posts I’m going to copy and paste part of parkingt111 brilliant post to try to reset the tone …
”I think some of my opinions have changed slightly or you could say i have had to actively make myself try and view things from both sides based on some posters who are willing to put forward their arguments in a respectful way and show they dont hate all palestinians as then you don't automatically go in defence mode.
It's also not been always been easy to do so, because of the hurt I feel right now when day in day out all I see and read is killing of thousands of civilians and children.

I'm not anti Israel but I am quite open about my opinions on the Israeli government especially Netanyahu and the actions of some of the IDF and I think at times people can conflate that as insulting the Israeli people. But then I'm also open about how I don't think Hamas are good for the people of Gaza.

I have also been inspired by some of the peace activists in the kibbutz and think some of them are the most loveliest people which makes what happened to them all the more terrible. “

I think the point about “ going into defence mode” is well made and works for both sides. If you put someone into defence mode things obviously escalate. So any poster in here who genuinely wants peace (rather than a victory over one side) should use measured language rather than aggressive rhetoric.

A. Non practising Jewish and Israeli. Friend murdered by a suicide bomber twenty years ago. It is hard not to take a side once you have friends or family whose life was taken or destroyed. I assume this applies to anyone who takes a side in this.

what I hate is that no one can take a second to mourn anything without a bunch of people saying something like “so you think killing babies on the other side is fine then?”

of course it’s not fine ffs. Can we just take a second to catch our breath!!

Its frustrating that the IDF is held to a way higher accountability than any other army in the world.
Not a problem if they haven’t put a foot wrong. If the have indeed committed war crimes however…
Are you arguing war crimes are fine when other country's commit them?

Atheist here. I am anti Israeli government and anti Hamas.
What you describe as " their intense obsession with Palestine" might be due to the intense bombardment, the policy of starvation and of deprivation of the basics for sustaining life that the Gazans are experiencing. You add this to the, at least, 5000 children dead in the space of a few weeks and you get what you call "their intense obsession".
Once again, being anti Israeli government does not make me antisemitic.

No, it will not be justified if they take justice into their own hands. That would almost be like saying that Hamas didn't do anything wrong on 7th October, which they obviously did. Seeing as you're a pacifist, I'd think you'd agree with that, no?

Your whole post is incredibly inflammatory - I mean, you start by rounding up 700 000 to "nearly a million" just to prove a point. That's quite a jump. That's also not where the start of this is, unless you're someone who believes Israel shouldn't exist. There have always been Jews in Israel. They have just, for the most part, been second class citizens and ruled by others.

You're also the only one on here who has said anything about Israeli lives being worth more than Palestinian lives. You're just seeing whatever you want to see, whatever will keep your immense hatred of Israel going. Your rhetoric right now isn't the kind that will help achieve peace.

The ideology came long before that. The idea that Palestinians = security risk was pre emptive, and has always been the narrative behind the control of them as a population.
The right wing "terrorist" Israeli government has also been voted in. Do they represent everyone in Israel? No. But one could argue that they are more representative than Hamas is to Palestinians. The last Israeli election was only last year. This must mean that the majority of Israel see Palestinians as animals who need to killed and no memory of them left behind? Babies are terrorists from the womb? Radicalised from birth? A good Arab is a dead one? All public statements made by government officials.

To answer the original question, I have no links. I went to work there more than 20 years ago thinking it was "complicated". I lived with both sides. Very few people in that situation come away thinking it's 'complicated'. On the contrary, it's very clear. Israel has the mission of oppressing the Palestinians and making their ability to self determination nigh on impossible. This isn't about taking sides or being "pro" whatever. It's a basic human rights issue.

one of the things that saddens and shocks me about this thread is how many people empathise with Israel’s ‘need ‘ to attack Gaza. As a pacifist Israel’s need to attack Gaza shocks me just as much as Hamas ‘need’ to attack Israel. ( and for people who conveniently start the clock on October 7th this has been going on dor
decades and started with the murder of thousands of Palestinians and forced expulsion of nearly a million ) They are both terrorist attacks and one will always fuel the other. Over 16000 civilians killed in Gaza whose family will want and deserve justice. To have justice when wronged is at the core of our existence. Who will give them justice and if they don’t have justice is it justified for them to take it in their own hands. Some posters posts reek of Israeli lives being worth more than a Palestinian life and the belief that some
lives are worth more than others in the core of everything that is wrong with this world .
Ive been to several marches and never seen any hate , there was an idiot that set of a firework at one but other that that extremely peaceful. I’ve marched side by side with many Jewish people. If these marches were full of hate why would they come. One Jewish lady I spoke to said she considered it antisemitic that anyone would even think she would support Israel’s mass killing and she was upset that Israel was hijacking Judaism which is a peaceful religion and against the killing of innocent civilians. I think this is a key point as by pro Israelis justifying the innocent slaughter of children they’re actually going against Judaism.

One of the things I’m finding most depressing is the characterisation of Israel and Israelis as evil warmongers. Israeli society is complex, I do watch the pro-Palestinian marches and wonder how many people on them even know that the peace process stalled in the 1990s partly due to the assassination of Israel’s left wing PM Yitkhak Rabin by another Israeli - an extremist right wing settler
I didn't know about the assassination but that's very interesting.
One thing I've found very interesting the more I've read and watched about the history is how moderate Israeli voices over the decades seem to have been repeatedly undermined and sidelined by hard liners who have been obsessed with settlement building and pushing Palestinians out.

I sometimes find myself wondering how the situation would be different now if more tolerant and inclusive people were calling the shots. My gut says that they'd not have created the sort of boiling pot that Gaza is now.

@untitledmum
There’s a march today against Antisemitism

@miniaturepixieonacid I appreciate your open curiosity.

I'm a practicing Jewish young lady living in the UK with strong Pro-Israel views. I've lived in Israel for a few years, have lots of family and friends there and feel very connected to the place.

Each innocent child suffering is a tragedy. I strongly value the lives of all innocent civilians, both Palestinian and Israeli.
I see how Israel has no choice but to invade Gaza in order to uproot Hamas. I wish this could be carried out without innocent people being involved but in war that is unrealistic and civilians and kids are being caught on both sides. Until Hamas is destroyed I really don't think there is place for a ceasefire.

I see Israel as the (mostly) moral ones in this fight, and Hamas as the evil ones. Israel is doing its best to abide by international law. It's being continuously challenged on this front and Israel hasn't hesitated to show proof of its morality. Its frustrating that the IDF is held to a way higher accountability than any other army in the world. This is a form of antisemitism.

(Please don't bombard me with evidence of Israel's "war crimes". I've seen them all.)

I also know that anyone shouting "From the river to the sea Palestine will be free" is giving the same message as Hamas - asking for no Jews to remain in Israel. And as a Jewish woman living in the UK it is frightening that there are thousands around me who are supporting an organisation who wants my demise.

@Rachna83
As someone who went on yesterday's march could you please describe the sentiment that was prevalent amongst those who attended ?

Was there anger ?
Did you encounter any examples of antisemitism?
Were the speeches mostly about peace ?
Were there any references to Israel in the speeches and if so were they antagonistic?
Do you feel it was a "hate march" ?
Thanks.