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Letter from Scholars of Holocaust & Antisemitism

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Decisiontimenow · 22/11/2023 21:20

An Open Letter on the Misuse of Holocaust Memory
Omer Bartov, Christopher R. Browning, Jane Caplan, Debórah Dwork, Michael Rothberg, et al.

Appealing to the memory of the Holocaust obscures our understanding of the antisemitism Jews face today and dangerously misrepresents the causes of violence in Israel-Palestine.
November 20, 2023

We the undersigned are scholars of the Holocaust and antisemitism from different institutions. We write to express our dismay and disappointment at political leaders and notable public figures invoking Holocaust memory to explain the current crisis in Gaza and Israel.

Particular examples have ranged from Israeli Ambassador to the UN Gilad Erdan donning a yellow star featuring the words “Never Again” while addressing the UN General Assembly, to US President Joe Biden saying that Hamas had “engaged in barbarism that is as consequential as the Holocaust,” while Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told German Chancellor Olaf Scholz that “Hamas are the new Nazis.” US Representative Brian Mast, a Republican from Florida, speaking on the House floor, questioned the idea that there are “innocent Palestinian civilians,” claiming, “I don’t think we would so lightly throw around the term ‘innocent Nazi civilians’ during World War II.”

Antisemitism often increases at times of heightened crisis in Israel-Palestine, as do Islamophobia and anti-Arab racism. The unconscionable violence of the October 7 attacks and the ongoing aerial bombardment and invasion of Gaza are devastating, and are generating pain and fear among Jewish and Palestinian communities around the world. We reiterate that everyone has the right to feel safe wherever they live, and that addressing racism, antisemitism, and Islamophobia must be a priority.

It is understandable why many in the Jewish community recall the Holocaust and earlier pogroms when trying to comprehend what happened on October 7—the massacres, and the images that came out in the aftermath, have tapped into deep-seated collective memory of genocidal antisemitism, driven by all-too-recent Jewish history.

However, appealing to the memory of the Holocaust obscures our understanding of the antisemitism Jews face today, and dangerously misrepresents the causes of violence in Israel-Palestine. The Nazi genocide involved a state—and its willing civil society—attacking a tiny minority, which then escalated to a continent-wide genocide. Indeed, comparisons of the crisis unfolding in Israel-Palestine to Nazism and the Holocaust—above all when they come from political leaders and others who can sway public opinion—are intellectual and moral failings. At a moment when emotions are running high, political leaders have a responsibility to act calmly and avoid stoking the flames of distress and division. And, as academics, we have a duty to uphold the intellectual integrity of our profession and support others around the world in making sense of this moment.

Israeli leaders and others are using the Holocaust framing to portray Israel’s collective punishment of Gaza as a battle for civilization in the face of barbarism, thereby promoting racist narratives about Palestinians. This rhetoric encourages us to separate this current crisis from the context out of which it has arisen. Seventy-five years of displacement, fifty-six years of occupation, and sixteen years of the Gaza blockade have generated an ever-deteriorating spiral of violence that can only be arrested by a political solution. There is no military solution in Israel-Palestine, and deploying a Holocaust narrative in which an “evil” must be vanquished by force will only perpetuate an oppressive state of affairs that has already lasted far too long.

Insisting that “Hamas are the new Nazis”—while holding Palestinians collectively responsible for Hamas’s actions—attributes hardened, antisemitic motivations to those who defend Palestinian rights. It also positions the protection of Jewish people against the upholding of international human rights and laws, implying that the current assault on Gaza is a necessity. And invoking the Holocaust to dismiss demonstrators calling for a “free Palestine” fuels the repression of Palestinian human rights advocacy and the conflation of antisemitism with criticism of Israel.

In this climate of growing insecurity, we need clarity about antisemitism so that we can properly identify and combat it. We also need clear thinking as we grapple with and respond to what is unfolding in Gaza and the West Bank. And we need to be forthright in dealing with these simultaneous realities—of resurgent antisemitism and widespread killing in Gaza, as well as escalating expulsions in the West Bank—as we engage with the public discourse.

We encourage those who have so readily invoked comparisons to Nazi Germany to listen to the rhetoric coming from Israel’s political leadership. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told the Israeli parliament that “this is a struggle between the children of light and the children of darkness” (a tweet from his office with the same phrase was later deleted). Defense Minister Yoav Gallant proclaimed, “We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly.” Such comments, along with a widespread and frequently cited argument that there are no innocent Palestinians in Gaza, do indeed bring to mind echoes of historical mass violence. But those resonances should serve as an injunction against wide-scale killing, not as a call to extend it.

As academics we have a responsibility to use our words, and our expertise, with judgment and sensitivity—to try and dial down inciteful language that is liable to provoke further discord, and instead to prioritize speech and action aimed at preventing further loss of life. This is why when invoking the past, we must do so in ways that illuminate the present and do not distort it. This is the necessary basis for establishing peace and justice in Palestine and Israel. This is why we urge public figures, including the media, to stop using these kinds of comparisons.

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BabaBarrio · 26/11/2023 20:02

The Gazan war is increasing antisemitism and islamaphobia in the West. The fears of Jewish and Muslims are not unfounded. Three Palestinian university students were just randomly shot in the USA for wearing the scarves and speaking Arabic. There was the 6yr old Muslim boy stabbed to death by their landlord.

In the U.K., Jewish students have been subjected to rape and death threats, had eggs thrown at them, and chased down and beaten in the street at St Andrews University.

These are just a few small examples of the overall increase in thousands of hate crimes that Jewish people are being subjected to in countries where popular opinion is more proPalestininan and hate crimes that Muslims are being subjected to where popular opinion is more proIsraeli,

Balance is essential. One-sidedness I think contributes to hate crimes.

It is a time of real fear and actively being attacked for these communities. I didn’t know how anyone can deny it is happening, it’s not the usual antisemtism or the usual islamaphobia no matter where you are.

BabaBarrio · 26/11/2023 19:48

feralunderclass · 26/11/2023 07:08

Thank you for sharing OP. @Mdg247 thank you also for your insight, some very thought provoking points.
For the one track, no depth and lack of critical thinking comments (and I particularly dislike the latter as it has been consistently used to dismiss anyone who has spoken out against the Palestinian plight, but I digress) this is an open letter. The purpose of which is to directly convey your main point/argument. It isn't intended to be a critical analysis. There is no need to acknowledge both the melody and harmony (and I'm quite uncomfortable with the comparison of the conflict with elements of music if I'm honest). If someone was writing an open letter against Hamas it would not be expected that they would be critically approaching the matter and addressing the illegality of the Israeli occupation, for example. That is not how an open letter works.

I didn’t like the music comparison either but felt I should try and connect with the OP using the music analogy they introduced. Communication is how we all get through this no matter how uncomfortable it gets.

Yes it was an open letter but it wasn’t an open letter condemning the Israeli government or Hamas, it was a letter regarding the misuse of Holocaust comparison in rhetoric by political leaders and public figures. As an open letter written on that cautionary basis, it should not have been limited to the Israel “side.”

I think while highlighting where some have got it wrong, it was one sided in who it used as illustrative examples. They could have easily included the military spokesman for Hamas whose videos regularly float around on Arabic channels (I only know this from a news report I watched on propaganda from Israel and Palestine earlier today). The news report on propaganda showed a few clips with translation from Arabic and there was misuse of Holocaust rhetoric in there by Hamas, although in terms of saying this is their Holocaust and they need to rise up against the oppressors. But the letter writers chose not to call that side out. Perhaps they are unaware? I was unaware until today myself that political leaders on both sides were misusing Holocaust rhetoric as I’m not an Arabic speaker and so don’t see the propaganda being directed towards Arabic audiences. But today I saw proof it is happening on both sides by leadership figures.

I am against all genocide and I do have concerns that the trajectory of the current war in Gaza will take Israel to a very dark place and think a permanent ceasefire and solution that gives Palestinians equal rights and self determination is necessary both for Israeli and Palestinian long term peace and security.

etmoiandme · 26/11/2023 13:57

I echo what @Happyvalleyfan said about your posts @Mdg247 - I was reading some of yours on another thread too which were just as insightful. We need more informed perspectives like yours.

The Middle East section in general could potentially have been a site of respectful dialogue with willingness to hear actual experiences and knowledge without so much of the entrenched 'my side's right' snarky soundbite replies, and links to articles from very questionable websites and media agencies. Not to mention the misuse of important and very specific words and concepts which have effectively been rendered meaningless. It feels like such a wasted opportunity for learning and you really have to wade through the waffle and hatred to get to these exchanges, which do thankfully exist, on 'both sides'.

The issue of fake news and nefarious external influence by regimes like Iran and Russia - or people with Hamas links - is a huge problem and as you say the base agenda is to cause instability in the West. There's a massive network of willing grifters ready to spread antisemitic lies and propaganda, many of them connected to UK and US universities (Miller being a recent and very illustrative example here). And some of them have direct involvement with the protests. Unfortunately there's far too many people willing to soak up and replicate the lies. Some of these people are nothing more than puppets of Putin and Assad and they've been around a while now, but SM has opened so many new doors making their job to recruit so fucking easy. You have to wonder how far that can go as there doesn't seem to be effective ways to deal with or counter it. The thing that blows my mind are posters on the one hand who bemoan hasbara and Israeli propaganda (as if they're the only country that does this), then will quite happily post a constant stream of articles, journalists and authors connected to 'news' agencies like Sputnik and Gray Zone.

And also, just because someone presents as an academic or "scholar", it doesn't mean they're right. But it does often mean they have the knowledge and intellectual capacity to play the game and successfully plant or twist an idea or narrative, which often comes with a flair for writing that makes their message sound more credible. (I'm not commenting on the article in the OP per se, just in general).

but I WILL add that there are a good number on the other side who use the conflict to support racist theories too (such as the EDL, and SOME members of the Pro-Israel community who now feel very fearful of Muslims and have started tarnishing all with the brush of Hamas.)

Yes this has been awful to see - the last people I want supporting Jews in the UK are the bloody far right thanks very much. I have family in Paris who refused to go to the peace march against antisemitism because Le Pen and her acolytes tried to co-opt it. These people don't give two shits about Jews. I have actually seen some right wing UK Jews align (maybe align isn't the best word - accommodate or tolerate perhaps) with people like T. Robinson, and some are seemingly now fan-boys of Douglas Murray. Bonkers, really. And the anti-Muslim rhetoric coming from some of them is reprehensible but I hope people can see it is absolutely not the mainstream opinion of British Jews. I worry that they do think it is though.

This maybe as some pro-Israeli posters are feeling a lot of cognitive dissonance, and it’s uncomfortable.
I do understand this sentiment @Happyvalleyfan. There's a couple of posters who make me feel quite uncomfortable with their more 'hawkish' rhetoric and I think they are actually doing a disservice to many Jewish or Israeli people who just want a peaceful solution and to feel safe, however naive that might sound. I also understand what you're saying about the protests, but I'm afraid they're starting to make me feel very uncomfortable now and that they are enabling a level of antisemitism in this country that I've never lived through before. I was actually against banning them and I suppose theoretically I still am (because democracy). However, I think I'd really like them to just stop now. I understand the majority aren't antisemites but the willingness to march with a (considerable) minority that are, is leaving me cold, not to mention scared.

Happyvalleyfan · 26/11/2023 12:26

@Mdg247
I agree that there was antisemitism prior to 7/10, but it does appear to have increased since then. The events on 7/10 have given allowance to those with antisemitic views to express them more openly. But there are many thousands of people who are not antisemitic but critical of the actions of the IDF, and the words of their leaders. There were 18 arrests yesterday- out of 300,000 people who attended the pro-Palestinian march according to the BBC. They were arresting those with pro-Hamas slogans- which highlights how uncommon these slogans were.

I’ve not been to a march, but I can imagine things that appear peaceful messages to some eg Free Palestine mean another to Israelis. There may be some naivety here- that people are beginning to understand, which Jewish people have been important in highlighting.

I agree that the most word holocaust is not used in other wars, and the letter perhaps explains why and also why it’s not helpful.

I agree that those with vested interests in Palestine will have been involved in promoting marches in favour for their own people. But people are not attending in their hundreds and thousands across the world because of this. They are attending due images coming out of Gaza and the words of their leaders.

It is awful that this is resulting in Jewish adults and children feeling frightened in their home countries all over the world. I really feel for children who feel unsafe going to school due to antisemitism, and those who tear down posters of hostages are misguided.

I do hope that the devastation that has happened on both sides will finally result in a political solution.

Mdg247 · 26/11/2023 08:37

Thanks @Happyvalleyfan

i understand what you are saying and share a lot of the same sentiment. Lots of people feel very split between wanting to protect friends and family in israel versus unnecessary deaths of so many thousands of innocent Palestinians. My two points to throw in here would be;

  1. There is not more antisemitism because of what Israel are doing. There already is antisemitism, therefore it becomes more acceptable when people CAN criticise Israel. I do not believe for a moment that people need to be racist in an argument against Israel. One can absolutely criticise a government without racist stereotypes to express this. This tends not to be the case with Israel. Where else do we see holocaust references when it comes to other countries? We certainly didn’t see it with Iraq, not in Syria, not in Yemen and certainly not with DAESH (ISIS), not even now as Pakistan deport 1.4m afghans. What about Turkey and the Kurds?

A lot of my work has been in this area. Certain facets of society, communities and indeed certain countries (not the U.K.) are brought up with deeply ingrained antisemitism. This is deep, disturbing and virulent form of it. That is then expressed in protests, (which I agree does not come from everyone but is very present) and which is why we see people using religious references which are often calls to violence (specifically against Jews) .We have seen synagogues attacked, people heckled and assaulted whilst leaving synagogue, which never seems to make mainstream news. A woman’s car was set on fire, schools have received bomb threats and kids also harassed whilst leaving their schools with things thrown at them, and threats made (by adults). There are other far more sinister things happening that have not been released publicly yet, but I am sure will come out at some point.

so no, israel is not the cause of antisemitism it’s just an easy way for people to be able to express themselves. Hence why I take issue with this post as being one sided, as if we are going to discuss to the holocaust at all I would argue the most important aspect of this point is in recognising it is being used precisely in order to tarnish ‘Jews’ with the same brush as they have been oppressed with. Netanyahu certainly doesn’t speak for holocaust survivors and neither does the present Israeli government.

  1. Regarding people being lemmings, yes and no. There is s disturbing rise of fake news and fake information which deliberately fans the flames of this conflict. People choose sides like it’s a football match, and it’s so prevalent that it totally dehumanises one side over another. It is so so common and for the purpose below I will express the one that is antisemitic, but I WILL add that there are a good number on the other side who use the conflict to support racist theories too (such as the EDL, and SOME members of the Pro-Israel community who now feel very fearful of Muslims and have started tarnishing all with the brush of Hamas.)

There is, and will also probably be made more publicly known, a very serious issue with sinister external influence on public discourse in the U.K. I believe the times wrote a very basic article on this, which explains many of the current protests in the U.K. have been organised and/or promoted by certain groups and governments who use them as an opportunity to increase instability in the U.K. One of the organisers behind some of the protests, for example happens to be an exiled Hamas leader living in the U.K. Another government who are known to be behind plenty of international terrorist plots have also had a large role to play in the dissemination of tropes, propaganda and stirring up tension at protests.

I believe there are far more lemmings than anyone wants to accept in this struggle and that is precisely due to, and visible because of the large scale levels of antisemitism we are seeing both at protests and outside of that on social media and elsewhere. Why else would ‘death to all Jews’ be the trending hashtag on twitter for over a week? And why else would babies need to be escorted out of their nursery schools due to threat of terror attack? It is exactly a lack of critical thinking and blind support of groups of people that lead people to behave in these ways. It certainly is NOT because people believe in freedom and human rights for all.

https://www.iranintl.com/en/202311038402

Several Iran Affiliated Groups In UK Involved In Anti-Israel Agitation

An investigation in The Times of London has revealed more than six UK-based groups with ties to the Iranian regime and active in pro-Hamas rallies.

https://www.iranintl.com/en/202311038402

feralunderclass · 26/11/2023 07:08

Thank you for sharing OP. @Mdg247 thank you also for your insight, some very thought provoking points.
For the one track, no depth and lack of critical thinking comments (and I particularly dislike the latter as it has been consistently used to dismiss anyone who has spoken out against the Palestinian plight, but I digress) this is an open letter. The purpose of which is to directly convey your main point/argument. It isn't intended to be a critical analysis. There is no need to acknowledge both the melody and harmony (and I'm quite uncomfortable with the comparison of the conflict with elements of music if I'm honest). If someone was writing an open letter against Hamas it would not be expected that they would be critically approaching the matter and addressing the illegality of the Israeli occupation, for example. That is not how an open letter works.

Happyvalleyfan · 26/11/2023 02:50

@Mdg247
I found your responses very thought provoking. They helped me more fully appreciate the double horror some Israelis must find themselves in- to have faced 7/10 and then to see what their government is doing in their name. This is not the message I hear from a lot of the pro-Israeli posts here and elsewhere. This maybe as some pro-Israeli posters are feeling a lot of cognitive dissonance, and it’s uncomfortable.

In the face of this, the protest marching and the overwhelming pro-Palestinian support on SM (the populace), must be upsetting and isolating. Even if it is understandable given what is happening to the Gazans.

However the leaders have been overwhelmingly important in causing the rise of this pro- Palestinian movement- if I can call it that. It’s precisely because people are not “lemmings” but are responding against the rhetoric coming not only from Netanyahu and his government, but also US/ Uk / EU leaders.

From the start, the stance of western leaders was Israel had to do what she had to do, to defend herself and get rid of Hamas. This appeared to be with no consideration of the impact it might have on Gazans, including their children, who were frequently blamed for having voted in Hamas (nearly two decades ago).

I think there might have been less marching if a more nuanced approach was taken from the beginning. If there was no SM, I wonder whether these same leaders would now be calling for restraint from the Israeli government. Even now, a lot of our leaders can’t call for a ceasefire as Hamas needs to be destroyed. It’s awful and possibly counter productive to use the death of innocents to a destroy a political movement- no matter how dreadful Hamas is.

I am absolutely sure this punishment of Gaza has led to a rise of antisemitism, and also silenced the suffering of the Israeli people- which shouldn’t be forgotten. But leaders have played a role in this.

Toothyfruity · 26/11/2023 00:13

Very thought provoking letter. Thanks for posting OP.

Mdg247 · 25/11/2023 23:25

As @BabaBarrio said, perfectly.

Lastly, and what I should have added is that, victims of the October 7 attacks and Jews or Israelis who are currently struggling with awful levels of antisemitism and whataboutery are also allowed to feel what they like about their experience.

Such lewd and sensational antisemitism hasn’t been experienced since the times of the holocaust (pre holocaust if I’m being accurate), therefore if those who are being dismissed, attacked or abused, feel and recognise this and maybe compare it to the late 1930s - it does not make that feeling wrong nor should it be ignored.

The Israeli government are not the mouthpiece of Jews or even Israelis - so we can ignore them (as stated in your post) but if many Jews or Israelis are trying to express their feelings towards the general vitriol they are receiving, and they feel they are seeing many of the same tropes as of that time (which is true) - this post basically dismisses that when seen or heard by the wrong ears.

BabaBarrio · 25/11/2023 23:17

To use the song example, it’s noticing a song has a great melody but no harmony. Single track. No depth.

Mdg247 · 25/11/2023 23:17

I guess my point to you is this, and I’m breaking it down for ease of clarity (for myself also)

  1. The Israeli government have just killed an excessive amount of Palestinians in the name of ‘retaliation’ against Hamas

  2. Amongst many other things, the Israeli government have used the war against Hamas to say ‘never again’ (Holocaust reference) to the murder of Jews.

  3. Of all the things, and the rhetoric we have seen from the Israeli government, Holocaust allusions are somewhat the least of everybody’s issues. Their references very clearly do not justify the level of assymetric warfare, and I don’t think anyone truly believes that it does? I guess I’m trying to say, what does this matter, why is it important what the Israeli government say? They’ve said lots of things and this is only one of them… therefore we know very clearly and it should be obvious that the Holocaust is not the reason for them to be ‘on guard’ against Hamas and excessively disparaging towards Palestinians in the process. I would argue that the issue here is much more about far right radicalism and expansionist mentality (basically religious extremism) which is one of the primary reasons settlements (for example) are widespread. For added context there have been huge scale uprisings against netanyahu for the past year, so I wouldn’t want to scaremonger people into thinking that the general Israeli public are pulleying whatever netanyahu is saying in their justification for this (if they can justify it, or want to.)

  4. For Jews who are experiencing the highest levels of antisemitism on record for a very long period of time (possibly since the holocaust if I’m honest) - all highlighting this topic does, is emphasise the very popular trope of Jews crying victim, which is a common theme right now. I’m not saying you did this purposefully, but I’m explaining that if there is a issue right now with the misuse of holocaust references, it is definitely more dismissible when we are talking about the Israeli government. The holocaust is being used most commonly, at this moment in time to make comparisons between Jews and the Nazis. Aside from the netanyahu comparisons (which is in bad taste but I care less about) the common discourse of this whole war is;

‘Palestinians let Jews in when they were thrown out of Europe and this is how they repay the Palestinians’

‘The oppressed have become the oppressors’

etc etc.

  1. What I am trying to explain is that, right now the rhetoric of the Israeli government has far less impact than the rhetoric of the general populace who are using certain references to silence Jews and Israeli (victims, of which there are, irregardless of their government).

I am also a scholar on this subject, my degree was on the conflict, and I have spent many years both assisting with charity work on behalf of Palestinians and similarly, involved with work against antisemitism in the U.K. and Europe.

I don’t think I can fully put into words how widespread this issue actually is, it is genuinely terrifying and I do not scare easily, but I would say that if we are going to discuss the holocaust in the context of this conflict, Israeli government officials making comparisons is far LESS of the problem right now for all of the above reasons.

Above all, I would prefer none of us bring up the holocaust at all in regards to any of this, as I am sure the majority of Jews and Israelis would too. It isn’t really relevant and is such minutia in regards to everything that the Israeli government are doing wrong.

Original poster
Decisiontimenow · 25/11/2023 22:54

@Mdg247

I don’t want to be unkind but I don’t understand what you are trying to say / ask here?

Do you have a problem with me sharing an Open Letter, if so why? You wrote something weird about me typing out select opinions, and having a take but being “covert”… all very paranoid thinking (as well as incorrect!).
I already replied to you explaining why I shared it, though I don’t understand why I need to? What irks you so much?

I still don’t see this letter as one sided or unbalanced, or let me put it this way, how would you balance it? What am I missing?

@BabaBarrio
I understand what you are saying but you seem to be critiquing them for not writing a different kind of letter? That’s like saying a song is missing something because it’s not a different song…

We write to express our dismay and disappointment at political leaders and notable public figures invoking Holocaust memory to explain the current crisis in Gaza and Israel.

That’s a very specific and clear purpose and they go on to outline examples of such misuse as well as why it is problematic. I think it’s okay that one thing doesn’t cover everything. And I think it’s very good, don’t think I’ve anything else to add x

OP posts:
BabaBarrio · 25/11/2023 22:41

That is true, they are one voice amongst many necessary expert type voices. While they are experts on genocide and the Holocaust, that doesn’t make them terrorism or war crime or conflict resolution or military strategy or humanitarian aid or hostage negotiation experts. So it’s a good letter in that they at least stayed in their area of expertise even if they forgot about the regular citizen who only has one vote and is individually powerless but as a group, quite powerful in driving international pressures.

Mdg247 · 25/11/2023 22:36

Just because someone, or even a group of people are academics, doesn’t mean that their opinion encompasses all? There is no arrogance in my questioning of your intention.

Furthermore there was not one point that I have said it is incorrect (which you seem to have conveniently missed), more that it talks to only one aspect of the wider rhetoric surrounding this entire issue, therefore it is one sided and not balanced at all. Again, what is the point of it? What point are you trying to prove with it? I don’t understand?

BabaBarrio · 25/11/2023 22:36

But yeah, I think they presumed regular citizens are lemmings and just followed the lead of politicians and public figures when, in fact, there has been a lot of grass roots reactions to the horrors unfolding that they did have a blind spot for people power.

BabaBarrio · 25/11/2023 22:34

I think though, it is a good letter and one the historians were right to publish because of the clear influence these people have on the regular citizens, “Indeed, comparisons of the crisis unfolding in Israel-Palestine to Nazism and the Holocaust—when they come from political leaders and others who can sway public opinion—are intellectual and moral failings. At a moment when emotions are running high, political leaders have a responsibility to act calmly and avoid stoking the flames of distress and division”

I think based on the above, they thought the regular citizen misusing the Holocaust on all sides was because leaders and notable public figures had been role modelling this behaviour and rhetoric and therefore their letter was to go to what they saw was the source of issue.

It is empathetic and contains nuance. It’s an important voice for them to have used as scholars of the Holocaust and Genocide.

Mdg247 · 25/11/2023 22:34

Thank you. This is exactly what I wanted to say but you’ve done so far more eloquently

BabaBarrio · 25/11/2023 22:26

I think @Mdg247 has a point that the letter is one-sided. Numerous ceasefire marches have had placards that say things like “Never Again is for Everyone” which are indirect allusions to the Holocaust and that is before you even start looking at antisemitic placards including one in London that put a Nazi swatiska inside an Israel flag, or one other I saw a photo off that added an Adolf Hitler moustache to Nethanyu’s face.

The reason the letter ends up being one sided is because the writers only focused on “political leaders and notable public figures” not the average citizen who may be protesting or tweeting or posting on mumsnet.

I’m not sure why they focussed only on “political leaders and notable public figures” but the absence of commenting on the average citizen misusing the Holocaust is a glaring, if unintended, consequence of writing letter that is to speak truth to power, while forgetting about people power.

Original poster
Decisiontimenow · 25/11/2023 22:13

@Mdg247
With the best will in the world I don’t understand what on earth you’re trying to say??!
But if it helps you somehow, I didn’t type a word of this, I copied and pasted an article to save people having to click on link (which I then posted, also above).
Also have to add how funny it is to read someone critique a Open Letter by these five experts on the Holocaust and antisemitism, celebrated academics who have dedicated their life’s work to these fields as “one sided”. I mean, the arrogance is staggering.
I genuinely didn’t have a take, I had nothing to add to what I read but seeing these important terms thrown around without any regard to their veracity, yes I’d rather defer to people who actually know what they are talking about, for all manner of reasons.

Mdg247 · Today 19:55

You ‘don’t have a take’ but you’re ‘just sharing’ a selective list of opinions from those YOU would like to highlight. You went through the effort to type it all out, so you clearly do have a take and you wish to share it publicly.

Let’s just be honest, I don’t see the point in being covert about that fact?

I think (just IMO) this topic is largely irrelevant to the overall cause and if you want to support the rights of Palestinians, it’s a very worthy cause. I don’t see how the holocaust or that kind of rhetoric affects you personally in day to day life, nor generally negates the reality of what is happening.

furthermore, whether particular Israeli politicians use the holocaust to justify their actions or not, were it not the holocaust, it would be something else. The fact is, what’s happening is happening and whatever excuses are used don’t justify it. I’ve seen a huge variety of ‘reasons’ but they largely don’t affect my opinion, and they shouldn’t yours…

I feel this post is just trying to stir up tension.

OP posts:
Mdg247 · 25/11/2023 22:12

It’s not interesting. It is a fact. Where in that letter do you see it being anything other than one sided?

I don’t disagree with the point, as a Jew myself. I would not compare Hamas to the Nazis or what happened on October 7th to the holocaust. What I find one sided about it, is that is explicitly and only talks about the use of the holocaust as reason for the Israeli government to justify their actions. There is NO mention of the constant holocaust references from the other side of the fence. Many Jews who may have felt compelled to march on behalf of the Palestinians have been ostracised from those groups due to the constant reference to the holocaust in regards to Israel in Gaza. I am absolutely sick of the constant references to Israel being Nazis, and the war being another ‘Holocaust’ which is abundant and undeniable. You can find the placards amongst the majority of protest imagery. There is no comparison. Just as we don’t compare international genocides or wide scale massacres with each other, it is in poor taste and only shows a serious lack of critical thinking.

Not once does this article mention it, nor does it mention anything about using the correct rhetoric for BOTH sides of the conflict. What in this ‘letter’ do you think makes it anything other than one sided?

i am presuming it is only not one sided to you, because you’re looking for confirmation as to what you want to hear. You haven’t even thought for a moment about the other side of the fence or what dangerous rhetoric does to them.

For those of us who want to be fair in our approach without ANY use of inflammatory language or the need to create ANY kind of parallels, this post served absolutely no purpose. The OP’s ‘no purpose for posting just did’ comment is so ridiculously reflective is testament enough. You don’t post something ‘just because’ 😂

Happyvalleyfan · 25/11/2023 21:26

You feel the letter was one sided? That’s interesting as I thought it was empathetic to both sides.

Mdg247 · 25/11/2023 21:14

You’ve clearly heard from what I’ve said what you want to hear. I don’t need you to spell out what the letter said, I’ve ready it, and maintain it’s largely unhelpful… and yes, one sided.

Happyvalleyfan · 25/11/2023 20:56

Mdg247 · 25/11/2023 20:15

It is widely unhelpful and specifically not helpful to both sides. There is nothing to say none of us should be making comparisons to the holocaust (as many pro Palestinian protestors actually do). It’s literally just to talk about how Jews may feel that October 7 envokes memories of the holocaust, but ‘not to worry guys!’ the Israeli government are deliberately indoctrinating Jews and Israelis with memories of the holocaust in regards to Hamas and their actions.

I think we all are aware that netanyahu and his cronies have no moral justification for the death of however many thousand Palestinians. So what’s the purpose of the thread? If you want to support both sides, denounce antisemitism when it is seen, and irregardless of what the Israeli government want to say, carry on supporting the innocent Palestinian civilians.

That’s a very one sided interpretation of the use of the H word, which the letter is trying to combat?

Firstly - it’s used by both sides and not just “many pro Palestinian protestors.”

And whilst many of us can absolutely understand the fear that Israel’s felt on October the 7th, the use of the H word is NOT “literally just to talk about how Jews may feel that October 7 envokes memories of the holocaust” - it’s being by justify the slaughter of thousands of innocent Palestinians.

immigrant002 · 25/11/2023 20:32

Amazing words !!I find it despicable when people use the pain of halaucast survivors to excuse what the fascist israel government is currently doing !

Mdg247 · 25/11/2023 20:15

It is widely unhelpful and specifically not helpful to both sides. There is nothing to say none of us should be making comparisons to the holocaust (as many pro Palestinian protestors actually do). It’s literally just to talk about how Jews may feel that October 7 envokes memories of the holocaust, but ‘not to worry guys!’ the Israeli government are deliberately indoctrinating Jews and Israelis with memories of the holocaust in regards to Hamas and their actions.

I think we all are aware that netanyahu and his cronies have no moral justification for the death of however many thousand Palestinians. So what’s the purpose of the thread? If you want to support both sides, denounce antisemitism when it is seen, and irregardless of what the Israeli government want to say, carry on supporting the innocent Palestinian civilians.