Please or to access all these features

Conflict in the Middle East

10/7 Denial - TRIGGER WARNING

338 replies

StDuBois · 22/11/2023 10:18

TRIGGER WARNING - (SA, infanticide, torture)

If you are not Jewish or Israeli, I implore you to read this, especially if you have been denying the scale of the 10/7 massacre.

The 10/7 massacre was live-streamed by the perpetrators on their own social media platforms.

Initially, antisemites celebrated. After more and more heinous, indefensible details started to come out, antisemites started denying it happened at all.

A PHENOMENON NOT UNLIKE HOLOCAUST DENIAL

Holocaust denial is an antisemitic and anti-Romani conspiracy that denies or distorts the established facts about the Nazi genocide of Jews and Roma.

In 1996, Gregory Stanton, the founder of Genocide Watch, wrote a briefing paper for the US Department of State titled “The 8 Stages of Genocide.” In 2012, the paper was amended to add two more stages. According to Genocide Watch, the tenth and final stage of genocide is denial.

According to the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, “Distortion of the Holocaust is rhetoric, written work, or other media that excuse, minimize, or misrepresent the known historical record.” A danger of Holocaust distortion is that from the outside, it might appear more credible than outright Holocaust denial. According to the IHRA Honorary Chairman Yehuda Bauer, “A half truth is worse than a full lie.”

Like Holocaust denial, 10/7 denial is not necessarily an outright denial that the massacre happened, but it can be a distortion of facts. For example, just like many Holocaust deniers claim that the Holocaust did indeed happen, but that it was only a plot for the Zionists to “get” Israel, 10/7 deniers can claim that 10/7 happened as a ploy for Israel to re-occupy the Gaza Strip.

Unlike the Nazis, who went through great lengths to cover up their crimes at the tail end of the war, the perpetrators of 10/7 gleefully live-streamed their war crimes and crimes against humanity.

NO, THE IDF DID NOT KILL ISRAELIS

Like Holocaust deniers of days past, 10/7 deniers are now blaming Israelis for their own massacre.

After the Israeli newspaper Haaretz published an article in which one anonymous police officer said that the police is looking into the possibility that some of the victims of the Nova music festival massacre were killed by fire from an IDF military chopper, antisemites took the statement out of context, distorted it, and disseminated it all the media and the internet.

In response to the Haaretz article, the Israeli police put out a statement that the investigation was only in regard to police activities on October 7, not military activities, and that as such, they do not have “any indication about the harm to civilians due to aerial activity there.”

The police later asked the press to “take responsibility for their publications and only base stories on official sources.”

Regardless, the conspiracy has taken a life of its own, so much so that Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas accused Israel of carrying out the massacre. Abbas later retracted his statement.

(TW)

YES, HAMAS RAPED WOMEN AND GIRLS

First, a question for the feminists: do you generally question survivors’ stories of sexual assault, or do you only do so when they are Israeli?

After the pro-Hamas crowd realized you cannot defend gang rape as a legitimate form of “decolonization” or “resistance,” they decided to deny that any such assaults took place.

While eyewitness testimony should be enough, apparently it’s not. But despite the fact that most of the bodies were charred or mutilated beyond recognition, the physical evidence still exists: “There is evidence of mass rape so brutal that they broke their victims’ pelvis – women, grandmothers, children,” according to a morgue worker.

“Many of the victims were in conditions too severe to identify, naked, and with clear signs of sexual assault,” according to the police.
In a video which was screened for journalists but has not been made available to the general public, “…a woman is unclothed from the waist down, with her underpants hanging off one thigh. She is lying face down and is dead. In another, a mutilated dead woman has her dress hitched up to her waist, with no underpants.”

The eyewitness testimony is just as harrowing. An eyewitness described an instance of gang rape: “He is here raping her…and then they pass her on to another person…she stood on her feet, she was bleeding from her back…[one of the terrorists] slices her breast and throws it on the road, and they’re playing with it. Afterwards, someone really penetrates her and shoots her in the head before he finishes. It’s not like he ejaculates and picks up his pants…He shoots her in the head while he’s still inside of her.”

“Women have been raped at the area of the rave next to their friends' bodies, dead bodies,” said a survivor of the Nova music festival massacre.

(TW)

YES, HAMAS BEHEADED BABIES

After President Biden clarified that he had not personally seen images of beheaded babies, conspiracy theorists went into a frenzy. So let’s make this clear once and for all: yes, Hamas beheaded Israeli babies.

This has now been independently verified by a group of international forensic pathologists, though the corpses were so badly burnt that it’s impossible to discern whether the babies were decapitated before or after being set on fire.

Israel showed US Secretary of State Anthony Blinken photographic evidence of those decapitations, which he has verified, and the photos, which are extremely graphic, were published to the Israeli Prime Minister’s office Twitter.

(TW)

DID HAMAS BURN A BABY IN AN OVEN?

According to an Israeli first responder and witness, Asher Moskowitz, yes: “The body hardened and, unfortunately, appeared to have also swollen…And really, the heating element of the oven was on the body itself.”

This has yet to be verified by a third party.

NO, HAMAS IS NOT HUMANE

Do we even have to say this?
After disturbing security camera footage emerged of Hamas terrorists dragging two Nepalese hostages through Al Shifa Hospital, which has long been known to be their main headquarters, Hamas apologists started praising Hamas for supposedly giving the hostages medical attention.

So let’s make two things clear: (1) you don’t get to blow someone’s leg off and then call yourself “humane” because you then got them medical attention, and (2) there are at least five other hospitals between the site where the hostages were abducted and Al Shifa Hospital. The terrorists took them to Al Shifa not because they wanted to give them medical attention, but because Al Shifa is a Hamas base.

Similarly, people called Hamas humane after released hostage Yokheved Lifshitz, 85, said that the guards assigned to her didn’t hurt her and that she was fed, received medication, and was kept in clean condition. Of course, she also said she was beaten when she was abducted, though Hamas apologists leave out that part. Additionally, her husband is still captive, so of course she wouldn’t want to say anything to the media that would jeopardize his safety. Finally, photos from before and after the kidnapping show that Lifshitz lost a drastic amount of weight while in captivity.

To reiterate: you don’t get to violently abduct civilians and then call yourself humane.

Hamas is not denying the massacre. So why are you?

(credit - Debbie Lechtman at Roots Metals)

OP posts:
Thread gallery
26
Livinginanotherworld · 24/11/2023 20:54

miniegg3 · 24/11/2023 19:39

They're destroying hamas infrastructure, does that really need explaining?

Hamas may have scarpered for now, but the infrastructure still remains in a bloody hospital! Obviously it's going to get destroyed in the process 🤦‍♀️ or maybe Israel shouldn't go in and leave it all intact.. hmm maybe that's what hamas had hoped would happen

I didn’t realise Hamas needed X-ray machines, or medical oxygen equipment. It’s one thing to destroy guns and rocket launchers, fine, but not medical equipment they are not items of war. That’s a warcrime.

Livinginanotherworld · 24/11/2023 20:50

Yes both sides filmed it, plus the IDF made a fake Hamas website and uploaded plenty on there as well. I’ve seen plenty of revolting videos throughout this whole sorry affair, but I wasn’t there, you, were not there, we only know what both sides tell us, so many images have been found to come from earlier situations, so many are manipulated.

Stomacharmeleon · 24/11/2023 19:52

@Livinginanotherworld thankfully Hamas (and others involved) filmed it so it's forever enshrined.

miniegg3 · 24/11/2023 19:43

Livinginanotherworld · 24/11/2023 19:26

But how do you actually know that’s not the true scenario ? You only know what the two sides are telling, how can you say with accuracy what actually happened. There were no independent witnesses sadly.

Have you actually seen the videos??

miniegg3 · 24/11/2023 19:39

Livinginanotherworld · 24/11/2023 15:55

For the people justifying the bombardment of Shifa, answer me this…..why would they do this, why ?
“Waking up to news that Israeli military has withdrawn from Shifa hospital but not before destroying the generators, oxygen supply machines, and X-ray machines. Such is the nature of the most “powerful” army in the Middle East backed by the greatest military machine in history.”

They're destroying hamas infrastructure, does that really need explaining?

Hamas may have scarpered for now, but the infrastructure still remains in a bloody hospital! Obviously it's going to get destroyed in the process 🤦‍♀️ or maybe Israel shouldn't go in and leave it all intact.. hmm maybe that's what hamas had hoped would happen

FromEden · 24/11/2023 19:39

But how do you actually know that’s not the true scenario ? You only know what the two sides are telling, how can you say with accuracy what actually happened. There were no independent witnesses sadly.

Hamas live streamed what they were doing so yes we do know what actually happened.

Livinginanotherworld · 24/11/2023 19:26

XRAYTHIS · 24/11/2023 18:45

This.

I read their view which basically says 50% of deaths from kibbutz and festival were Israel soldiers or similar then hundreds were killed by Israeli soldiers themselves. Leaving very few killed by Hamas, other terrorists or general Palestinian people who joined in and also looted.

So yes rape apologists, murder and torture apologists or nothing to see here it didn't happen that bad or it wasn't Hamas et al it was the Israelis that did it or most of it.

Unbelievable.

Edited

But how do you actually know that’s not the true scenario ? You only know what the two sides are telling, how can you say with accuracy what actually happened. There were no independent witnesses sadly.

XRAYTHIS · 24/11/2023 18:45

Cleverestclog · 24/11/2023 16:36

You're seriously citing the Grayzone as a news source??
A conspiracy theorist news blog that denies the Chinese government's oppression of the Uyghurs?

This.

I read their view which basically says 50% of deaths from kibbutz and festival were Israel soldiers or similar then hundreds were killed by Israeli soldiers themselves. Leaving very few killed by Hamas, other terrorists or general Palestinian people who joined in and also looted.

So yes rape apologists, murder and torture apologists or nothing to see here it didn't happen that bad or it wasn't Hamas et al it was the Israelis that did it or most of it.

Unbelievable.

Stomacharmeleon · 24/11/2023 18:14

Well said @Xenia

Parker231 · 24/11/2023 18:08

Xenia · 24/11/2023 17:53

I support Israel but I try to listen to all different kinds of views and I think mumsnet has done a very good job in the last few weeks in allowing people with very different and very firmly held views to express them.

Hopefully Hamas will continue to release those it kidnapped. I don't think it is very fair that more on the other side are released in return for fewer from the Israeli side but I am grateful to all who have brokered today's release including the intermediary nations. We have a very long way to go however before all those kidnapped by Hamas are returned. This may be the end of an early phase in this war but it is by no means the end of what Hamas chose to unleash.

We’ve a long way to go for the release of the hostages held by both Hamas and Israel not just those kidnapped by Hamas.

Xenia · 24/11/2023 17:53

I support Israel but I try to listen to all different kinds of views and I think mumsnet has done a very good job in the last few weeks in allowing people with very different and very firmly held views to express them.

Hopefully Hamas will continue to release those it kidnapped. I don't think it is very fair that more on the other side are released in return for fewer from the Israeli side but I am grateful to all who have brokered today's release including the intermediary nations. We have a very long way to go however before all those kidnapped by Hamas are returned. This may be the end of an early phase in this war but it is by no means the end of what Hamas chose to unleash.

Livinginanotherworld · 24/11/2023 17:42

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

vesage3349 · 24/11/2023 17:16

From Putin's mouthpiece to Erdogans.

vesage3349 · 24/11/2023 17:15

Livinginanotherworld · 24/11/2023 16:38

Most of that information came from Haaretz and was verified originally. If you don’t read another point of view, how can you possibly enter into a debate ? Ok, you just your own one-sided media.

There's "another point of view", and there's "pro-Putin extremists"

Livinginanotherworld · 24/11/2023 16:38

vesage3349 · 24/11/2023 16:34

Yeah you're right, I'm not going to support the fucking gray zone. Rape apologist genocide denying Putin shills.

Most of that information came from Haaretz and was verified originally. If you don’t read another point of view, how can you possibly enter into a debate ? Ok, you just your own one-sided media.

Cleverestclog · 24/11/2023 16:36

You're seriously citing the Grayzone as a news source??
A conspiracy theorist news blog that denies the Chinese government's oppression of the Uyghurs?

vesage3349 · 24/11/2023 16:34

Yeah you're right, I'm not going to support the fucking gray zone. Rape apologist genocide denying Putin shills.

Livinginanotherworld · 24/11/2023 16:25

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Auvergne63 · 24/11/2023 16:23

Xenia · 24/11/2023 16:05

I am glad people on both sides are still debating the issues. I stand by Israel and I also think given what Hamas did Israel was morally right to declare war with all the results that flow from war. War is awful which is why most of us try to avoid it but if you are attacked as Israel was (and indeed the US on 9/11) you then proceed - this is how it goes. May be fewer people will try to attack Israel again in future and some good will come of this.

Shakespeare comes to mind

O, pardon me, thou bleeding piece of earth,
That I am meek and gentle with these butchers!
Thou art the ruins of the noblest man
That ever livèd in the tide of times.
Woe to the hand that shed this costly blood!
Over thy wounds now do I prophesy—
Which, like dumb mouths, do ope their ruby lips
To beg the voice and utterance of my tongue—
A curse shall light upon the limbs of men.
Domestic fury and fierce civil strife
Shall cumber all the parts of Italy.
Blood and destruction shall be so in use,
And dreadful objects so familiar,
That mothers shall but smile when they behold
Their infants quartered with the hands of war,
All pity choked with custom of fell deeds,
And Caesar’s spirit, ranging for revenge,
With Ate by his side come hot from hell,
Shall in these confines with a monarch’s voice
Cry “Havoc!” and let slip the dogs of war,
That this foul deed shall smell above the earth
With carrion men, groaning for burial.

I am speechless.

Auvergne63 · 24/11/2023 16:22

Livinginanotherworld · 24/11/2023 15:55

For the people justifying the bombardment of Shifa, answer me this…..why would they do this, why ?
“Waking up to news that Israeli military has withdrawn from Shifa hospital but not before destroying the generators, oxygen supply machines, and X-ray machines. Such is the nature of the most “powerful” army in the Middle East backed by the greatest military machine in history.”

Every day the IDF sinks to a new low and every day some posters still believe this is needed in order to get rid of Hamas. Hamas was the excuse to commit genocide.

Auvergne63 · 24/11/2023 16:19

OreoTheKitty · 24/11/2023 14:46

Hi molly, I don’t know if we have discussed this before, but I’d like to ask you about this report you’ve posted (have you read it? Genuine question) and your assertion that Israel as an apartheid state.

Can you explain to me how Israel is practising apartheid against Palestinians, with real-life examples? I ask because Palestinians living in Judea and Samaria, along with the Gaza Strip, are not citizens of Israel. They are citizens of the Palestinian Authority and Hamas governments, respectively. Therefore the Israeli government do not have any jurisdiction over their lives day to day. These citizens are in a different territory that they do not control. Any grievances about the civil rights of Palestinians should be directed towards those governments, not Israel.

Instead, if you interrogate what apartheid actually was, that is, a system of de jure discrimination and segregation of South Africa society (from 1948-1994), you cannot claim that a similar dynamic is at play in territories beyond Israel’s borders. During apartheid, a white minority ruled and oppressed a majority black population with restrictions on housing, employment and freedom of movement. I am very wary of the apartheid accusation because I am fully up to speed with what the word means and the experiences of black South Africans during the apartheid era. It really doesn’t fit in this context, and when you make this comparison it really doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. The Afrikaans word for Apartheid means “apartness” - and in practice, every detail of life was subject to discrimination by law. Black South Africans did not have the vote. Skin colour determined where you were born and lived, your job, your school, which bus, train, taxi and ambulance you used, which park bench, toilet and beach you used, whom you could marry, and in which cemetery you were buried. So are you really telling me that Israel controls Palestinians’ lives to this extent in both Gaza and the West Bank? Honestly?!

I’m sorry, but someone has been lying to you - including Amnesty International, so this report doesn’t wash - it’s simply ahistorical, mendacious nonsense (you see, I’ve read it). You also need to be aware of their troubling history of anti-Israel bias and existing issues with institutional antisemitism.

I have seen plenty of instances where some people refer to an “apartheid wall”. This is a cynical misrepresentation of the security barrier between Israel and parts of Judea and Samaria. This barrier (which is mostly a fence in reality), was put up to stop Palestinian terrorism after hundreds of Israelis were killed, maimed or wounded in suicide bombings, stabbings and shootings (do you remember the first and second intifadas?). It does not separate people based on race or any other criteria. However, it is fair to say that some Israelis have opportunistically twisted the barrier’s purpose to grab land from Palestinians. That is exploitative and damaging (and I utterly condemn this). But calling it the “apartheid wall”, as critics do, is untrue propaganda.

I also just want to point out that Israel issue Gazans and Palestinians from the West Bank with employment permits so they cross the border legally each day for work. The permits allow Palestinians to work mostly menial jobs that pay far higher wages than those available inside Gaza or the West Bank (another way in which the PA and Hamas have been letting their own people down - by not bothering to create a decent and robust economy that delivers prosperity). So again, this undermines your apartheid argument.

Final question on this issue. If Israel are running the same brutal system of apartheid as the South African government did all those years ago, how come the country’s black citizens didn’t rise up and rape, torture, murder and kidnap its white citizens “in the name of equality and ending apartheid”? Could it be because Hamas’ unspeakable attacks have got nothing to do with the human rights of Palestinians and improving their lives, but everything to do with wanting to kill Jews and destroying Israel?

Interested to hear your thoughts on the above. Thank you.

Pardon? Do you actually believe what you have stated?
Some Israeli scholars and former Israeli officials have also started using this designation. In 2022, Michael Ben-Yair, a former attorney general of Israel, said that “it is with great sadness that I must also conclude that my country has sunk to such political and moral depths that it is now an apartheid regime.” Earlier this year, Tamir Pardo, a former head of Mossad, Israel’s intelligence agency, emphasized, too, that “there is an apartheid state here” featuring “two people [who] are judged under two legal systems.”
Don't let facts get in the way of your opinions though.

Livinginanotherworld · 24/11/2023 16:08

ChalkWitch · 24/11/2023 16:00

But do you have evidence?

Haaretz have verified evidence, but they are being silenced now.