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Conflict in the Middle East

10/7 Denial - TRIGGER WARNING

338 replies

StDuBois · 22/11/2023 10:18

TRIGGER WARNING - (SA, infanticide, torture)

If you are not Jewish or Israeli, I implore you to read this, especially if you have been denying the scale of the 10/7 massacre.

The 10/7 massacre was live-streamed by the perpetrators on their own social media platforms.

Initially, antisemites celebrated. After more and more heinous, indefensible details started to come out, antisemites started denying it happened at all.

A PHENOMENON NOT UNLIKE HOLOCAUST DENIAL

Holocaust denial is an antisemitic and anti-Romani conspiracy that denies or distorts the established facts about the Nazi genocide of Jews and Roma.

In 1996, Gregory Stanton, the founder of Genocide Watch, wrote a briefing paper for the US Department of State titled “The 8 Stages of Genocide.” In 2012, the paper was amended to add two more stages. According to Genocide Watch, the tenth and final stage of genocide is denial.

According to the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, “Distortion of the Holocaust is rhetoric, written work, or other media that excuse, minimize, or misrepresent the known historical record.” A danger of Holocaust distortion is that from the outside, it might appear more credible than outright Holocaust denial. According to the IHRA Honorary Chairman Yehuda Bauer, “A half truth is worse than a full lie.”

Like Holocaust denial, 10/7 denial is not necessarily an outright denial that the massacre happened, but it can be a distortion of facts. For example, just like many Holocaust deniers claim that the Holocaust did indeed happen, but that it was only a plot for the Zionists to “get” Israel, 10/7 deniers can claim that 10/7 happened as a ploy for Israel to re-occupy the Gaza Strip.

Unlike the Nazis, who went through great lengths to cover up their crimes at the tail end of the war, the perpetrators of 10/7 gleefully live-streamed their war crimes and crimes against humanity.

NO, THE IDF DID NOT KILL ISRAELIS

Like Holocaust deniers of days past, 10/7 deniers are now blaming Israelis for their own massacre.

After the Israeli newspaper Haaretz published an article in which one anonymous police officer said that the police is looking into the possibility that some of the victims of the Nova music festival massacre were killed by fire from an IDF military chopper, antisemites took the statement out of context, distorted it, and disseminated it all the media and the internet.

In response to the Haaretz article, the Israeli police put out a statement that the investigation was only in regard to police activities on October 7, not military activities, and that as such, they do not have “any indication about the harm to civilians due to aerial activity there.”

The police later asked the press to “take responsibility for their publications and only base stories on official sources.”

Regardless, the conspiracy has taken a life of its own, so much so that Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas accused Israel of carrying out the massacre. Abbas later retracted his statement.

(TW)

YES, HAMAS RAPED WOMEN AND GIRLS

First, a question for the feminists: do you generally question survivors’ stories of sexual assault, or do you only do so when they are Israeli?

After the pro-Hamas crowd realized you cannot defend gang rape as a legitimate form of “decolonization” or “resistance,” they decided to deny that any such assaults took place.

While eyewitness testimony should be enough, apparently it’s not. But despite the fact that most of the bodies were charred or mutilated beyond recognition, the physical evidence still exists: “There is evidence of mass rape so brutal that they broke their victims’ pelvis – women, grandmothers, children,” according to a morgue worker.

“Many of the victims were in conditions too severe to identify, naked, and with clear signs of sexual assault,” according to the police.
In a video which was screened for journalists but has not been made available to the general public, “…a woman is unclothed from the waist down, with her underpants hanging off one thigh. She is lying face down and is dead. In another, a mutilated dead woman has her dress hitched up to her waist, with no underpants.”

The eyewitness testimony is just as harrowing. An eyewitness described an instance of gang rape: “He is here raping her…and then they pass her on to another person…she stood on her feet, she was bleeding from her back…[one of the terrorists] slices her breast and throws it on the road, and they’re playing with it. Afterwards, someone really penetrates her and shoots her in the head before he finishes. It’s not like he ejaculates and picks up his pants…He shoots her in the head while he’s still inside of her.”

“Women have been raped at the area of the rave next to their friends' bodies, dead bodies,” said a survivor of the Nova music festival massacre.

(TW)

YES, HAMAS BEHEADED BABIES

After President Biden clarified that he had not personally seen images of beheaded babies, conspiracy theorists went into a frenzy. So let’s make this clear once and for all: yes, Hamas beheaded Israeli babies.

This has now been independently verified by a group of international forensic pathologists, though the corpses were so badly burnt that it’s impossible to discern whether the babies were decapitated before or after being set on fire.

Israel showed US Secretary of State Anthony Blinken photographic evidence of those decapitations, which he has verified, and the photos, which are extremely graphic, were published to the Israeli Prime Minister’s office Twitter.

(TW)

DID HAMAS BURN A BABY IN AN OVEN?

According to an Israeli first responder and witness, Asher Moskowitz, yes: “The body hardened and, unfortunately, appeared to have also swollen…And really, the heating element of the oven was on the body itself.”

This has yet to be verified by a third party.

NO, HAMAS IS NOT HUMANE

Do we even have to say this?
After disturbing security camera footage emerged of Hamas terrorists dragging two Nepalese hostages through Al Shifa Hospital, which has long been known to be their main headquarters, Hamas apologists started praising Hamas for supposedly giving the hostages medical attention.

So let’s make two things clear: (1) you don’t get to blow someone’s leg off and then call yourself “humane” because you then got them medical attention, and (2) there are at least five other hospitals between the site where the hostages were abducted and Al Shifa Hospital. The terrorists took them to Al Shifa not because they wanted to give them medical attention, but because Al Shifa is a Hamas base.

Similarly, people called Hamas humane after released hostage Yokheved Lifshitz, 85, said that the guards assigned to her didn’t hurt her and that she was fed, received medication, and was kept in clean condition. Of course, she also said she was beaten when she was abducted, though Hamas apologists leave out that part. Additionally, her husband is still captive, so of course she wouldn’t want to say anything to the media that would jeopardize his safety. Finally, photos from before and after the kidnapping show that Lifshitz lost a drastic amount of weight while in captivity.

To reiterate: you don’t get to violently abduct civilians and then call yourself humane.

Hamas is not denying the massacre. So why are you?

(credit - Debbie Lechtman at Roots Metals)

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26
Trulywonderful · 23/11/2023 20:46

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 20:36

Where have I stated it’s fictional?

You said:

However, I also believe that Hamas aren’t hiding in the hospital or school or refugee camp.

I posted a report from Amnesty International from 2015 stating that, among other things, Hamas tortured people in the outpatients clinic of Al-Shifa hospital.

Your response was:

there was no real evidence even back then in 2015 that amnesty or any unbiased independent source saw for themselves. Wow.

But you're now saying that you don't think it's fictional?

So now you're claiming that you believe the Amnesty 2015 report that Hamas were, among other things, torturing people in the outpatients clinic of Al Shifa hospital, therefore it is entirely possible that Hamas are the sorts of people to hide in hospitals?

You seem to have pivoted from denying that Hamas hide in hospitals to Hamas don't have a massive command centre in a hospital in 2023. Can we now assume that you have abandoned your earlier claim?

(by the way, being presented with a report about tortures and murders being committed by Hamas and your response being 'wow that report makes Israel look bad' suggests that you are not entirely neutral in your assessment of the situation).

This

Stomacharmeleon · 23/11/2023 20:40

@Lamelie I am hoping to but am rather anxious about the whole thing.

miniegg3 · 23/11/2023 20:39

www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/son-of-hamas-in-interview-terrorists-brought-wrath-of-god-with-october-7-attack/amp/

Also worth reading about what mosab hassan yousef has to say about the regime, and he is the son of a hamas founder

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 20:36

Where have I stated it’s fictional?

You said:

However, I also believe that Hamas aren’t hiding in the hospital or school or refugee camp.

I posted a report from Amnesty International from 2015 stating that, among other things, Hamas tortured people in the outpatients clinic of Al-Shifa hospital.

Your response was:

there was no real evidence even back then in 2015 that amnesty or any unbiased independent source saw for themselves. Wow.

But you're now saying that you don't think it's fictional?

So now you're claiming that you believe the Amnesty 2015 report that Hamas were, among other things, torturing people in the outpatients clinic of Al Shifa hospital, therefore it is entirely possible that Hamas are the sorts of people to hide in hospitals?

You seem to have pivoted from denying that Hamas hide in hospitals to Hamas don't have a massive command centre in a hospital in 2023. Can we now assume that you have abandoned your earlier claim?

(by the way, being presented with a report about tortures and murders being committed by Hamas and your response being 'wow that report makes Israel look bad' suggests that you are not entirely neutral in your assessment of the situation).

Lamelie · 23/11/2023 20:26

Is anyone going to the march? I’m at the moment going alone and happy to do so but I feel a bit sad that amongst my lovely normally lefty kind friends and family it seems such a strong statement.

Stomacharmeleon · 23/11/2023 20:24

@miniegg3 enters poster stage left.... oh they aren't terrorists they could be anyone, they might be providing medical assistance, they aren't dressed like terrorists, having a machete might be for another reason....

These are all terrible excuses I have heard on here...

firstpasttheposter · 23/11/2023 20:21

3and2ready · 23/11/2023 19:33

So where is the unbiased and independent evidence to show these tunnels in operation? They allowed fox and bbc news in and nothing substantial was found that proves this claim. Yes, a handful of guns were found in a room, but that is according to the idf. How do we knowing wasn’t planted there? Why won’t they let another external agency investigate with them so they can show the world that they were justified in their terrible actions against the doctors, injured and civilians of the shifa hospital.

That's a different question. I don't know all the answers to that one. But if you are so confused that you don't get the rational behind putting tunnels and bases under hospitals and schools in the first place, I don't think you are a good person to investigate!

miniegg3 · 23/11/2023 20:14

3and2ready · 23/11/2023 19:33

So where is the unbiased and independent evidence to show these tunnels in operation? They allowed fox and bbc news in and nothing substantial was found that proves this claim. Yes, a handful of guns were found in a room, but that is according to the idf. How do we knowing wasn’t planted there? Why won’t they let another external agency investigate with them so they can show the world that they were justified in their terrible actions against the doctors, injured and civilians of the shifa hospital.

They're hardly going to let the press into the tunnels they're currently using are they? I've seen many videos of the tunnels and you can see exactly what they're being used for! I've also seen videos of hamas on 7/10 bringing hostages into the hospital and its very clear to see THEY are in charge and the doctors have no control

Stomacharmeleon · 23/11/2023 20:10

@3and2ready because last time I checked we are in the middle of a war. And it's very much a two way thing not just Israel strolling in...
it always make me chuckle on here the righteous indignation that posters have that evidence is not posted straight away to the internet for their perusal. Not thinking that the reason the west, oh and all the Arab countries, are not racing to get involved are that they know it's there as do the intelligence services. Or that showing all their cards now may jeopardise getting any hostages released. Or the future of the conflicts

petuniasandpetals · 23/11/2023 19:54

I'm thinking that Hamas knew the Israelis knew they were based at Al Shifa and have therefore moved somewhere else.
This was a well planned attack that went better than they even expected.
Sinwar has a very strategic mind and spent years in Israeli prison learning about his enemies.
Of course Gazans are not all terrorists but Hamas is their government and so they will either be afraid of them or look at them as their protectors.

miniegg3 · 23/11/2023 19:34

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

3and2ready · 23/11/2023 19:33

firstpasttheposter · 23/11/2023 19:15

Erm, let me think, why has the Israeli government not dealt with the Hamas base underneath a hospital before? I mean they could have bombed it any time between 2015 and now? I wonder why the didn't?

Because it's underneath a hospital! That's why!! Believe it or not, the Israelis don't actually want to bomb a hospital. That's why Hamas put it there in the first place! Do you really not get this!!!!

So where is the unbiased and independent evidence to show these tunnels in operation? They allowed fox and bbc news in and nothing substantial was found that proves this claim. Yes, a handful of guns were found in a room, but that is according to the idf. How do we knowing wasn’t planted there? Why won’t they let another external agency investigate with them so they can show the world that they were justified in their terrible actions against the doctors, injured and civilians of the shifa hospital.

3and2ready · 23/11/2023 19:28

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 18:58

At a guess because they didn't want Amnesty reporting on the war crimes that they detail Israel committing in the segment that you posted?

However, I haven't the faintest idea why you think that means that Amnesty would have published a fictional report saying that Hamas are bad.

Do you think the report is fictional and that the detainees, families, witnesses etc that they interviewed and the evidence of the torture and murders committed by Hamas are fake? That Hamas don't actually torture and murder people?

Or is it just that you disbelieve the bit where they tortured and murdered people at Al Shifa?

Where have I stated it’s fictional?
What I’ve pointed out to you is that
1: amnesty international were prohibited from entering Gaza and doing an independent and free review based upon their chosen pieces of evidence and witnesses. They had no choice but to speak to agents, witnesses and create a limited report based upon limited second hand details. Whereas, if Israel had nothing to hide, they should’ve let amnesty international to go in and have free access to research and observe as they wanted.can you not see that this type of behaviour makes them look guilty straight away?
2: if it was found that Hamas were operating from shifa hospital back in 2015, then surely that would’ve been dealt with by the idf back then. I refuse to believe that the idf knew what Hamas were doing in the hospital in 2014-2015, but had no power to stop them as they don’t have any control over gaza. That’s just laughable to say that. This is Israel, the same country that refuses to listen to the UN or countries around the world to minimise deaths of innocent civilians. It prevents international agencies from entry. Bombs when are where it pleases. Evacuates villages whenever it wants etc. it has full control over what happens in Gaza and the whole world knows and see that.
3: once again, where is the unbiased and independent evidence that Hamas had a major operational unit in Al shifa? In oct/nov 2023?

firstpasttheposter · 23/11/2023 19:21

miniegg3 · 23/11/2023 19:16

It's honestly scary how fucking deluded people seem to be about hamas/gaza

The world just doesn't understand terrorism. No matter what terrorists, no matter what depths they sink to, people just explain it away as 'oh, they didn't really mean to do that, that's just their enemies exagerating to make them look bad! They're really just freedom fighters trying to look after the oppressed.'

Stomacharmeleon · 23/11/2023 19:17

@firstpasttheposter Star absolutely

miniegg3 · 23/11/2023 19:16

It's honestly scary how fucking deluded people seem to be about hamas/gaza

firstpasttheposter · 23/11/2023 19:15

3and2ready · 23/11/2023 17:48

So Israel claimed back in 2015 that Hamas were in the hospital? And Israel, who the entire world cannot stop from bombing innocent civilians, just let Hamas continue their work there? You think we are going to believe that? Hamas worked comfortably at Al shifa hospital for almost a decade, whilst the idf and Israeli government knew they were there and what they were doing? You actually think anyone’s going to believe this?
Also, have you actually read the report yourself? I think you might want to read how accurate the methodology was behind writing the report.
Amnesty have declared they were prohibited from going into Gaza by Israel. They tried in many occasions but were not allowed. Eventually they just wrote a report based upon Israeli, idf and Palestinian eye witnesses. Israel don’t let amnesty or any external agency into Gaza for decades, and you insinuate that Israel doesn’t control Gaza? For goodness sakes, read the report yourself first. You’ve just made the Israeli government look even more sketchy than they were before.
Think that speaks volumes doesn’t it? Why won’t Israel let them into the Gaza and show them the evidence of Hamas and what they’ve done?
makes sense now, Israel have never allowed an independent unbiased group of people into Gaza. They only dictate to them what their version of events are and then reports are written based upon that.
there was no real evidence even back then in 2015 that amnesty or any unbiased independent source saw for themselves. Wow.

Edited

Erm, let me think, why has the Israeli government not dealt with the Hamas base underneath a hospital before? I mean they could have bombed it any time between 2015 and now? I wonder why the didn't?

Because it's underneath a hospital! That's why!! Believe it or not, the Israelis don't actually want to bomb a hospital. That's why Hamas put it there in the first place! Do you really not get this!!!!

ProvincialLady1 · 23/11/2023 19:06

ProvincialLady1 · 23/11/2023 18:58

Thank you. I'm not going to read the replies because from experience most threads on this board are not exactly full of well-wishers, but thank you for posting this. It's very important that the reality of what happened is documented. Flowers

(To clarify, I'm neither Jewish nor Israeli but I do feel very deeply about this).

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 18:58

3and2ready · 23/11/2023 18:45

What do you think was the reason they didn’t allow Amnesty International into Gaza when they continually asked them for months? Why did they prevent them from going in?

At a guess because they didn't want Amnesty reporting on the war crimes that they detail Israel committing in the segment that you posted?

However, I haven't the faintest idea why you think that means that Amnesty would have published a fictional report saying that Hamas are bad.

Do you think the report is fictional and that the detainees, families, witnesses etc that they interviewed and the evidence of the torture and murders committed by Hamas are fake? That Hamas don't actually torture and murder people?

Or is it just that you disbelieve the bit where they tortured and murdered people at Al Shifa?

ProvincialLady1 · 23/11/2023 18:58

Thank you. I'm not going to read the replies because from experience most threads on this board are not exactly full of well-wishers, but thank you for posting this. It's very important that the reality of what happened is documented. Flowers

Stomacharmeleon · 23/11/2023 18:52

@basculin

10/7 Denial - TRIGGER WARNING
3and2ready · 23/11/2023 18:45

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 18:28

So when, as you posted, Amnesty International conducted interviews with ex Hamas detainees, prisoners' families, witnesses to abuse, using their fieldworker in Gaza, and when they examined the court proceedings, medial records, death certificates, documentation from other agencies etc etc, actually what happened was they were being controlled by Israel to publish a fictional report that made Hamas look bad?

That's what you think happened?

What do you think was the reason they didn’t allow Amnesty International into Gaza when they continually asked them for months? Why did they prevent them from going in?

Xenia · 23/11/2023 18:28

The anti Israel element on MN has absolutely astounded me. I am glad people from all political positions are posting so we can all get to the facts.

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 18:28

3and2ready · 23/11/2023 17:58

Read the report will you. Why post something when you don’t even know what else is written in it.
Israel didn’t allow amnesty into Israel to conduct their own unbiased investigation and make observations for themselves. This happened in 2015 (thanks for the report you linked) and is clearly happening now. BBC news reporters weren’t allowed free access to the hospital last week.
it’s this very controlling behaviour that makes you sure that Israel are lying. Thanks for pointing that out by sending the link for that report 👍🏽

Edited

So when, as you posted, Amnesty International conducted interviews with ex Hamas detainees, prisoners' families, witnesses to abuse, using their fieldworker in Gaza, and when they examined the court proceedings, medial records, death certificates, documentation from other agencies etc etc, actually what happened was they were being controlled by Israel to publish a fictional report that made Hamas look bad?

That's what you think happened?

basculin · 23/11/2023 18:18

3and2ready · 23/11/2023 17:54

Do you never watch bbc verified? Or bbc news in general? Don’t you have the bbc news app on your phone perhaps? It’s not an impersonator in a fake bbc news studio. Doesn’t matter you leave it. I wouldn’t stress about it if I was you. No need for you to look at the bbc news report if you haven’t already seen it which was on the front page of their bbc news app for a few days a couple of weeks ago.

Then link to the bbc, not to dodgy twitter accounts.

I take iyou're r not the poster from another thread who kept insisting the BBC couldn't be trusted because everything they showed had to go through the IDF, but ignored repeated requests to back that up.