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Conflict in the Middle East

10/7 Denial - TRIGGER WARNING

338 replies

StDuBois · 22/11/2023 10:18

TRIGGER WARNING - (SA, infanticide, torture)

If you are not Jewish or Israeli, I implore you to read this, especially if you have been denying the scale of the 10/7 massacre.

The 10/7 massacre was live-streamed by the perpetrators on their own social media platforms.

Initially, antisemites celebrated. After more and more heinous, indefensible details started to come out, antisemites started denying it happened at all.

A PHENOMENON NOT UNLIKE HOLOCAUST DENIAL

Holocaust denial is an antisemitic and anti-Romani conspiracy that denies or distorts the established facts about the Nazi genocide of Jews and Roma.

In 1996, Gregory Stanton, the founder of Genocide Watch, wrote a briefing paper for the US Department of State titled “The 8 Stages of Genocide.” In 2012, the paper was amended to add two more stages. According to Genocide Watch, the tenth and final stage of genocide is denial.

According to the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, “Distortion of the Holocaust is rhetoric, written work, or other media that excuse, minimize, or misrepresent the known historical record.” A danger of Holocaust distortion is that from the outside, it might appear more credible than outright Holocaust denial. According to the IHRA Honorary Chairman Yehuda Bauer, “A half truth is worse than a full lie.”

Like Holocaust denial, 10/7 denial is not necessarily an outright denial that the massacre happened, but it can be a distortion of facts. For example, just like many Holocaust deniers claim that the Holocaust did indeed happen, but that it was only a plot for the Zionists to “get” Israel, 10/7 deniers can claim that 10/7 happened as a ploy for Israel to re-occupy the Gaza Strip.

Unlike the Nazis, who went through great lengths to cover up their crimes at the tail end of the war, the perpetrators of 10/7 gleefully live-streamed their war crimes and crimes against humanity.

NO, THE IDF DID NOT KILL ISRAELIS

Like Holocaust deniers of days past, 10/7 deniers are now blaming Israelis for their own massacre.

After the Israeli newspaper Haaretz published an article in which one anonymous police officer said that the police is looking into the possibility that some of the victims of the Nova music festival massacre were killed by fire from an IDF military chopper, antisemites took the statement out of context, distorted it, and disseminated it all the media and the internet.

In response to the Haaretz article, the Israeli police put out a statement that the investigation was only in regard to police activities on October 7, not military activities, and that as such, they do not have “any indication about the harm to civilians due to aerial activity there.”

The police later asked the press to “take responsibility for their publications and only base stories on official sources.”

Regardless, the conspiracy has taken a life of its own, so much so that Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas accused Israel of carrying out the massacre. Abbas later retracted his statement.

(TW)

YES, HAMAS RAPED WOMEN AND GIRLS

First, a question for the feminists: do you generally question survivors’ stories of sexual assault, or do you only do so when they are Israeli?

After the pro-Hamas crowd realized you cannot defend gang rape as a legitimate form of “decolonization” or “resistance,” they decided to deny that any such assaults took place.

While eyewitness testimony should be enough, apparently it’s not. But despite the fact that most of the bodies were charred or mutilated beyond recognition, the physical evidence still exists: “There is evidence of mass rape so brutal that they broke their victims’ pelvis – women, grandmothers, children,” according to a morgue worker.

“Many of the victims were in conditions too severe to identify, naked, and with clear signs of sexual assault,” according to the police.
In a video which was screened for journalists but has not been made available to the general public, “…a woman is unclothed from the waist down, with her underpants hanging off one thigh. She is lying face down and is dead. In another, a mutilated dead woman has her dress hitched up to her waist, with no underpants.”

The eyewitness testimony is just as harrowing. An eyewitness described an instance of gang rape: “He is here raping her…and then they pass her on to another person…she stood on her feet, she was bleeding from her back…[one of the terrorists] slices her breast and throws it on the road, and they’re playing with it. Afterwards, someone really penetrates her and shoots her in the head before he finishes. It’s not like he ejaculates and picks up his pants…He shoots her in the head while he’s still inside of her.”

“Women have been raped at the area of the rave next to their friends' bodies, dead bodies,” said a survivor of the Nova music festival massacre.

(TW)

YES, HAMAS BEHEADED BABIES

After President Biden clarified that he had not personally seen images of beheaded babies, conspiracy theorists went into a frenzy. So let’s make this clear once and for all: yes, Hamas beheaded Israeli babies.

This has now been independently verified by a group of international forensic pathologists, though the corpses were so badly burnt that it’s impossible to discern whether the babies were decapitated before or after being set on fire.

Israel showed US Secretary of State Anthony Blinken photographic evidence of those decapitations, which he has verified, and the photos, which are extremely graphic, were published to the Israeli Prime Minister’s office Twitter.

(TW)

DID HAMAS BURN A BABY IN AN OVEN?

According to an Israeli first responder and witness, Asher Moskowitz, yes: “The body hardened and, unfortunately, appeared to have also swollen…And really, the heating element of the oven was on the body itself.”

This has yet to be verified by a third party.

NO, HAMAS IS NOT HUMANE

Do we even have to say this?
After disturbing security camera footage emerged of Hamas terrorists dragging two Nepalese hostages through Al Shifa Hospital, which has long been known to be their main headquarters, Hamas apologists started praising Hamas for supposedly giving the hostages medical attention.

So let’s make two things clear: (1) you don’t get to blow someone’s leg off and then call yourself “humane” because you then got them medical attention, and (2) there are at least five other hospitals between the site where the hostages were abducted and Al Shifa Hospital. The terrorists took them to Al Shifa not because they wanted to give them medical attention, but because Al Shifa is a Hamas base.

Similarly, people called Hamas humane after released hostage Yokheved Lifshitz, 85, said that the guards assigned to her didn’t hurt her and that she was fed, received medication, and was kept in clean condition. Of course, she also said she was beaten when she was abducted, though Hamas apologists leave out that part. Additionally, her husband is still captive, so of course she wouldn’t want to say anything to the media that would jeopardize his safety. Finally, photos from before and after the kidnapping show that Lifshitz lost a drastic amount of weight while in captivity.

To reiterate: you don’t get to violently abduct civilians and then call yourself humane.

Hamas is not denying the massacre. So why are you?

(credit - Debbie Lechtman at Roots Metals)

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26
Parker231 · 24/11/2023 11:17

garlicandsapphires · 24/11/2023 10:13

I have wondered about this, whether any of these images are AI generated, and if so, is there a way of telling?
AI specialists I assume can distinguish between real and fake? but how impartial are they??

I saw the fake pictures from the Israelis showing rockets kept by working MRI machines in the hospital. Surely the Israelis must realise that rockets and an MRI wouldn’t be in the same room - it would have exploded!

Trulywonderful · 24/11/2023 10:23

XRAYTHIS · 24/11/2023 10:20

The images generate a mass response. I doubt many on X, Instagram and Tic Toc think about it being real or not. They are sites for quick viewing, quick comment and move on. Some of the comments are vile and I would hope that people would not talk like that in everyday real life.

Very useful for terrorist organisations for propaganda. They are able to manipulate feelings, reactions and their point of view

Sadly it increases overall hatred and promotion of anti semitism and racism in general. It appears easy to push a particular narrative. So much misinformation out there and repeated as factual.

Edited

This

XRAYTHIS · 24/11/2023 10:20

The images generate a mass response. I doubt many on X, Instagram and Tic Toc think about it being real or not. They are sites for quick viewing, quick comment and move on. Some of the comments are vile and I would hope that people would not talk like that in everyday real life.

Very useful for terrorist organisations for propaganda. They are able to manipulate feelings, reactions and their point of view

Sadly it increases overall hatred and promotion of anti semitism and racism in general. It appears easy to push a particular narrative. So much misinformation out there and repeated as factual.

garlicandsapphires · 24/11/2023 10:13

Xenia · 24/11/2023 09:48

Yes, Hamas is appalling. I hope for the sake of Palestinians as much as the safety of Israelis that it can be stamped out for good. Also ome of the Hamas images are generated by AI so it tends to be best for people on both sides to wait and assess before assuming what they see is a real image or not .https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12785455/young-people-Hamas-dirty-tricks-propaganda-war-AMI-H-ORKABY.html

I have wondered about this, whether any of these images are AI generated, and if so, is there a way of telling?
AI specialists I assume can distinguish between real and fake? but how impartial are they??

garlicandsapphires · 24/11/2023 10:07

Stomacharmeleon · 23/11/2023 15:45

I think Israel made a mistake on holding back a lot of information and only releasing it pushed to by way of explanation. If they had flooded the internet eg Hamas style then people would have had the same visceral reactions.

I am not saying it's right and I get why they did it but Hamas has fought a strong PR campaign. This is another sign that this was well planned and they understood what would happen afterwards. They have harnessed Israel's rage and need for retribution and used it against them. Helpfully pushed along by a big dose of anti semitism.

I wish people could see beyond.....

I was reflecting that my Instagram feed is now full of the most horrifying images and videos coming from Gaza as I have deliberately followed some of the accounts of people on the ground, but I haven't seen anything recently from the other side - yet of course it is still happening.
I don't want to lose sight of the horrors inflicted by Hamas and the suffering of the Israelis.

Xenia · 24/11/2023 09:48

Yes, Hamas is appalling. I hope for the sake of Palestinians as much as the safety of Israelis that it can be stamped out for good. Also ome of the Hamas images are generated by AI so it tends to be best for people on both sides to wait and assess before assuming what they see is a real image or not .https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12785455/young-people-Hamas-dirty-tricks-propaganda-war-AMI-H-ORKABY.html

firstpasttheposter · 24/11/2023 09:36

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It's a chicken and egg problem. Hamas go into Israeli houses and murder children (it's not the first time this has happened), so Israel bombs Palestine, so more people join Hamas.

However, Israel does not recruit Israeli children as soldiers. You can't shift all the blame onto Israel for Hamas methods.

Humdingerydoo · 24/11/2023 09:36

notsoready4school · 24/11/2023 08:25

Not a single mainstream news source (even the openly pro Israel ones) CNN, BBC, Sky News has said that the evidence proudly shared by IDF supports their assertions on Al Shifa or indeed any hospital. The existence of tunnels underneath hospitals and all of Gaza was never questioned. It is whether those tunnels were being used as a command centre for Hamas NOW, at the time that Israel decided to suffocate 9 premature babies in favour of sieging a hospital and denying medicine, food, water and importantly fuel to 1000s of patients. Also now a new low has been achieved of actually shooting at medical staff.

the evidence is so painfully orchestrated many have clearly pretended to be fair in commenting on it but still the ‘belief’ is there with the blind faith ppl and you want us to have blind faith in Israel too despite all their lies. Ppl the world over know this is the WMD moment but a couple of guns (ridiculously staged) and a tunnel (where the entrance was escavated with bull dozers from under a building!?) that apparently is proof enough for you of Hamas being there NOW. Not 2015, NOW.

One of the most expensive armies in the world uses publicly available intelligence from 2015 to attack civilian hospitals.

Edited

Oh dear. Maybe have a look at previous posts on here? You'll see plenty of denial of the tunnels existence. You'll also see plenty of people (possibly even yourself included? I'm not sure) saying that there is no Hamas in the hospitals because the medical professionals say so, yet now the same people saying "of course there's Hamas in the hospitals, but you have to understand why the medical professionals couldn't say that! They'd have been killed!" (which I don't dispute). Yet Israelis are the ones blindly trusting what's being said 🙃

ChalkWitch · 24/11/2023 09:28

@notsoready4school judging by your posts you are definitely ready for school. You need to educate yourself and leave TikTok alone.

basculin · 24/11/2023 08:34

@notsoready4school

And all this is related to the denial of 10/7 how exactly? Although you've already said you think Jewish people are lying about the rise in anti-Semitism for money so do you think the same about the attacks?

notsoready4school · 24/11/2023 08:25

Not a single mainstream news source (even the openly pro Israel ones) CNN, BBC, Sky News has said that the evidence proudly shared by IDF supports their assertions on Al Shifa or indeed any hospital. The existence of tunnels underneath hospitals and all of Gaza was never questioned. It is whether those tunnels were being used as a command centre for Hamas NOW, at the time that Israel decided to suffocate 9 premature babies in favour of sieging a hospital and denying medicine, food, water and importantly fuel to 1000s of patients. Also now a new low has been achieved of actually shooting at medical staff.

the evidence is so painfully orchestrated many have clearly pretended to be fair in commenting on it but still the ‘belief’ is there with the blind faith ppl and you want us to have blind faith in Israel too despite all their lies. Ppl the world over know this is the WMD moment but a couple of guns (ridiculously staged) and a tunnel (where the entrance was escavated with bull dozers from under a building!?) that apparently is proof enough for you of Hamas being there NOW. Not 2015, NOW.

One of the most expensive armies in the world uses publicly available intelligence from 2015 to attack civilian hospitals.

notsoready4school · 24/11/2023 08:14

Stomacharmeleon · 23/11/2023 15:45

I think Israel made a mistake on holding back a lot of information and only releasing it pushed to by way of explanation. If they had flooded the internet eg Hamas style then people would have had the same visceral reactions.

I am not saying it's right and I get why they did it but Hamas has fought a strong PR campaign. This is another sign that this was well planned and they understood what would happen afterwards. They have harnessed Israel's rage and need for retribution and used it against them. Helpfully pushed along by a big dose of anti semitism.

I wish people could see beyond.....

I wish people could see beyond and just ‘believe’ everything regardless of proof and evidence…then they would agree with us that the only way is to slaughter and starve a million children

notsoready4school · 24/11/2023 08:00

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firstpasttheposter · 24/11/2023 06:34

notsoready4school · 24/11/2023 00:34

they haven’t, they have been robbed of their whole childhood by Israel and their heartless allies who turned a blind eye to Gaza as Israel continued its senseless relentless violence on these children to forever scar them and rob them of any chance of normality

Actually, it's Hamas that uses children as soldiers, but nice but of blame shifting there!

notsoready4school · 24/11/2023 00:34

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they haven’t, they have been robbed of their whole childhood by Israel and their heartless allies who turned a blind eye to Gaza as Israel continued its senseless relentless violence on these children to forever scar them and rob them of any chance of normality

notsoready4school · 24/11/2023 00:31

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 16:08

The Amnesty International report from 2015 which says that Hamas was using Al Shifa hospital as a base is better evidence, that's true.

Yes it is perhaps evidence that it was used about 8 years ago. It would be some kind of stupid to start looking 8 years later when apparently the whole world knew that’s where there top secret headquarters which only consisted of a tunnel was

Trulywonderful · 24/11/2023 00:16

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 23:54

Oh and if we are all agreed that Amnesty International is a good source maybe...

...maybe you think you could just about segue the conversation into condemning Israel?

Honestly. Can't help yourselves.

Probably could but won't

Oh the predictability of it

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 23:54

Oh and if we are all agreed that Amnesty International is a good source maybe...

...maybe you think you could just about segue the conversation into condemning Israel?

Honestly. Can't help yourselves.

miniegg3 · 23/11/2023 23:42

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mollyfolk · 23/11/2023 23:32

I don’t deny the attacks. They sound absolutely horrific. Nothing justifies an attack on ordinary citizens like this - especially children - it’s an attack on innocence itself. I haven’t seen any legitimate news source say anything to deny the attacks. And I also condemn the Israeli authorities for starving and bombing and killing thousands of ordinary Palestinian’s - many of which are children. Nothing justifies their actions and they are losing the international support that they once had through their show of complete inhumanity.

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 22:05

Lots of support for the plight of Palestinians in Gaza until it's Hamas doing the killing...one wonders why.

miniegg3 · 23/11/2023 20:59

Trulywonderful · 23/11/2023 20:50

He has done some amazing honest interviews and brilliant speeches

It is very dangerous to speak out as he has and put a target on his back, very brave man

Absolutely, I think a lot of westerners need to hear this! Might get the dangerous ideas out of their heads

Trulywonderful · 23/11/2023 20:52

Lamelie · 23/11/2023 20:26

Is anyone going to the march? I’m at the moment going alone and happy to do so but I feel a bit sad that amongst my lovely normally lefty kind friends and family it seems such a strong statement.

I will be there you can lookout for a sign that says something 'truly' 😁

Trulywonderful · 23/11/2023 20:50

miniegg3 · 23/11/2023 20:39

www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/son-of-hamas-in-interview-terrorists-brought-wrath-of-god-with-october-7-attack/amp/

Also worth reading about what mosab hassan yousef has to say about the regime, and he is the son of a hamas founder

He has done some amazing honest interviews and brilliant speeches

It is very dangerous to speak out as he has and put a target on his back, very brave man