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feralunderclass · 19/11/2023 10:41

@etmoiandme the paper I just posted addresses this.

etmoiandme · 19/11/2023 10:39

@Parkingt111 I was half-right. Not London specifically and more recent than 20 years ago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_teaching_hoax

Holocaust teaching hoax - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_teaching_hoax

Parkingt111 · 19/11/2023 10:36

Muslims are not all one big group that have the same views
There are approximately 3.9 million Muslims living in the UK
To say they are as a community a source of anti semitism is wrong.
If someone said one of the main sources of islamophobia in the UK was the Jewish community it would be considered (and rightly so) anti-semitic

etmoiandme · 19/11/2023 10:35

@Parkingt111 I have a vague recollection of a rumour that that was started claiming it had been banned from being taught in Muslim schools in London by teachers who denied the holocaust - maybe about 20 years ago. But it turned out to be a big hoax and no teacher had banned it.

feralunderclass · 19/11/2023 10:34

Towerofsong · 19/11/2023 09:50

Yes there is antisemitism from British people too, in fact any Jewish person will tell you that in the UK today it comes from 3 sources:

  1. The extreme far right (I would say this is very little at present)
  2. The moderate to extreme left (a lot)
  3. The Muslim community (incredibly pervasive)

Of course, 2) currently favours 3) so they march together and band together in this.

On Friday I had a maybe 20-25 year old British Muslim girl (2nd or maybe 3rd generation immigrant) telling me that of course Jews were OK (I'm pretty sure she thought that if she said that she was staying on the right side of the line) but that Israelis were Europeans who had no right ever to have set foot in Palestine in the first place and they should all get out. Had no interest in the fact that well over 50% of Israelis are from middle eastern Jewish families who were evicted to Israel, or in what she would like done about Israeli Arabs who are Druzim, Christian or Muslim who quite liked having an Israeli government and didn't want to be ruled instead by Hamas. She also avoided the question about where she thought the Israelis should go to and retreated back to mud slinging.

There is a lot of miseducation out there in some circles / communities, it is well known that teachers in schools with large Muslim populations are refraining from reaching about the holocaust because they are afraid of the response from parents.

So yes it does need to be taught and it does need to be made compulsory. I am pretty sure the majority of Muslims on the Pro-Palestinian marches would not have marched for Uyghur or Yeminite Muslims, they are marching because they believe Israelis are almost-white European colonialist settlers in what they think should be Muslim lands.

And I do have to say it is extremely rare to hear even one Muslim standing up and saying this is wrong or condemning Hamas / terrorism. I believe they are out there but it sure would be nice to hear from them. Maybe amongst themselves they denounce it but for the world they stay quiet because they won't criticise another Muslim, who knows.

Re SBC, I find him generally funny but he really goes way too close to the edge sometimes. In fact, sometimes he goes right over the edge. That is of course what satire is, but I do find it uncomfortable. But I also admire his ability to do that with a straight face. Maybe these clips should have a line at the bottom saying they are satire for those that don't understand that type of humour.

On the subject of Jewish people silencing other Jewish people or calling them antisemitic.....you can have antisemitic Jewish people just as you can have homophobic gay people. The external messages received become internalised.

But a lot of the time I think it is fear - if a Jewish person stands up and says I am Jewish but I don't like x y and z, the rest of the community fears that they are just encouraging the external antisemites. And it is true, because when Jews agree with anything that antisemites say, people say 'Oh look, even the Jews themselves admit it' and use it to give their cause more credence.

It's like if someone knows a prison officer and that officer discloses another officer was letting phones be smuggled in, that person will tell all their friends 'I know a prison officer and even they admitted that the prisons are rife with smuggling and that officers ignore it", and then when that gets to the next person it becomes 'phones and drugs are snuggled into every prison in the country, all the officers know about it, I know this on good authority because my mate is friends with a prison officer'. (apologies to any prison officers reading!). That is why Jewish people sometimes try to shut down other Jewish people.

Unfortunately there are people who want to remain uneducated, because the truth is too painful. Whilst I believe faith schools have the right to exist, they should be compelled to teach about certain topics. A quick Google reveals that Jewish schools are the worst offenders (with some schools failing 24 out of 29 inspections). The Jewish schools have been failed for refusal to acknowledge other religions exist, refusal to talk about the monarchy, refusal to teach sexual reproduction in science. Jewish communities responded by saying Ofsted are antisemitic.

As an outsider, I am concerned that the Western world (UK in particular) appears to shift blame onto Muslims for any problems. Immigration, terrorism and now antisemitism. Regarding schools refusing to teach about the Holocaust in order "not to offend Muslims", this is a study which dispels this as a myth and a moral panic that resulted from 'Chinese whispers'. It has turned into a form of asserted 'thought assumptions', which is illustrated in your post where you posit that Muslims must be doing something because xyz and not for any other reason. This in itself is dangerous. (And I'm not saying some Muslims schools aren't teaching about it, anymore than some Jewish schools don't acknowledge other religions, but it doesn't appear to be a 'thing' in the way the Daily Mail claim).

I don't see that teaching about the Holocaust will help anyone see Israel's actions from a different angle. You don't form a safe state for one people by oppressing another,and indoctrinating the people that the 'other' are evil (see recent and historic government speech). Recent actions of Israel have showed that this goes way beyond that.

Re the silencing of Jewish voices - I fully appreciate some Jewish people might be antisemitic, as in they hate other Jews. The voices though that are being silenced are not doing this, majority are saying 'not in my name'. Regardless, it's still a "silencing". You can't say Jewish people aren't allowed a voice when you yourself have silenced other voices because they possess speech that you disapprove of.

Here

Project MUSE - Holocaust Education

https://muse.jhu.edu/pub/354/oa_edited_volume/chapter/2777952

Parkingt111 · 19/11/2023 10:30

@Towerofsong also another point I am not denying that there are some people who are anti semitic and are also Muslim. The same way there are some people who are anti semitic and also a part of various other religions. But I think to label the whole Muslim community as a source of anti-semitism would not only be incorrect but also racist. And unfair
I'm sure you can see why many would object to that

Parkingt111 · 19/11/2023 10:23

@Towerofsong can I ask where you have heard that schools with a muslim majority are scared of teaching about the holocaust because they might offend parents? I grew up in a community that was predominantly Muslim and I went to a state school that was predominantly Muslim. We did learn about the holocaust but at a very basic level but i believe it was more due to time constraints and how poorly general history is covered in the national curriculum. The thought that this is because parents might be offended is something I am honestly hearing for the first time. Its not something I have ever heard being discussed or even hinted towards so I would be interested to know where this has taken place

BethDuttonsTwin · 19/11/2023 10:18

Towerofsong · 19/11/2023 09:50

Yes there is antisemitism from British people too, in fact any Jewish person will tell you that in the UK today it comes from 3 sources:

  1. The extreme far right (I would say this is very little at present)
  2. The moderate to extreme left (a lot)
  3. The Muslim community (incredibly pervasive)

Of course, 2) currently favours 3) so they march together and band together in this.

On Friday I had a maybe 20-25 year old British Muslim girl (2nd or maybe 3rd generation immigrant) telling me that of course Jews were OK (I'm pretty sure she thought that if she said that she was staying on the right side of the line) but that Israelis were Europeans who had no right ever to have set foot in Palestine in the first place and they should all get out. Had no interest in the fact that well over 50% of Israelis are from middle eastern Jewish families who were evicted to Israel, or in what she would like done about Israeli Arabs who are Druzim, Christian or Muslim who quite liked having an Israeli government and didn't want to be ruled instead by Hamas. She also avoided the question about where she thought the Israelis should go to and retreated back to mud slinging.

There is a lot of miseducation out there in some circles / communities, it is well known that teachers in schools with large Muslim populations are refraining from reaching about the holocaust because they are afraid of the response from parents.

So yes it does need to be taught and it does need to be made compulsory. I am pretty sure the majority of Muslims on the Pro-Palestinian marches would not have marched for Uyghur or Yeminite Muslims, they are marching because they believe Israelis are almost-white European colonialist settlers in what they think should be Muslim lands.

And I do have to say it is extremely rare to hear even one Muslim standing up and saying this is wrong or condemning Hamas / terrorism. I believe they are out there but it sure would be nice to hear from them. Maybe amongst themselves they denounce it but for the world they stay quiet because they won't criticise another Muslim, who knows.

Re SBC, I find him generally funny but he really goes way too close to the edge sometimes. In fact, sometimes he goes right over the edge. That is of course what satire is, but I do find it uncomfortable. But I also admire his ability to do that with a straight face. Maybe these clips should have a line at the bottom saying they are satire for those that don't understand that type of humour.

On the subject of Jewish people silencing other Jewish people or calling them antisemitic.....you can have antisemitic Jewish people just as you can have homophobic gay people. The external messages received become internalised.

But a lot of the time I think it is fear - if a Jewish person stands up and says I am Jewish but I don't like x y and z, the rest of the community fears that they are just encouraging the external antisemites. And it is true, because when Jews agree with anything that antisemites say, people say 'Oh look, even the Jews themselves admit it' and use it to give their cause more credence.

It's like if someone knows a prison officer and that officer discloses another officer was letting phones be smuggled in, that person will tell all their friends 'I know a prison officer and even they admitted that the prisons are rife with smuggling and that officers ignore it", and then when that gets to the next person it becomes 'phones and drugs are snuggled into every prison in the country, all the officers know about it, I know this on good authority because my mate is friends with a prison officer'. (apologies to any prison officers reading!). That is why Jewish people sometimes try to shut down other Jewish people.

Really excellent post @Towerofsong thank you x

Reallifelurker · 19/11/2023 10:17

To be fair to @Reallifelurker , we don’t agree on much, but I respect the fact that when it was pointed out to you that the Jewish board is clearly not the right place for this thread, you took that on board and we’re able to see another perspective rather than doubling down

Yeah, like I said it was just a suggestion. If it was wrong then fair enough. * *

Happyvalleyfan · 19/11/2023 10:16

Towerofsong · 19/11/2023 08:38

It depends what you mean by being critical of Israel

If you mean particular actions or policies of the Israeli government, then no, thats legitimate

If you are critical of Israel's existence, or dispute it's right to exist, that's antiSemitic.

To stay on the right side of the divide, you need to be specifically saying you are critical of a government policy, the government, a particular member of the government.

Not "Israel this, Israel that"

It will be interesting to see what follows on from Netanyahu’s right wing coalition. Hopefully most Israelis will think that their government has gone too far in their name, and will finally vote in something more moderate?
Equally it may be that Hamas’s actions will lurch Israel further to the right?

Fear for survival and land affects both Israelis and Palestinians. Let’s hope this blood shed leads to some semblance of peace and finally world leaders using diplomacy to help Palestinians find a 2 state solution that treats them fairly.

Reallifelurker · 19/11/2023 10:14

Yes I find the phrase "whataboutism" is usually used to silence debate

Yes, the first post on this thread was a post about Gaza and the second one was a rather sarcastic one saying Sasha was happy to use racial stereotypes himself.

OP challenged the first post but it was the second one that was accused of whataboutary which is interesting as, unlike the first, it was on topic

ChalkWitch · 19/11/2023 10:05

This is going back through the thread, so apologies.
To be fair to @Reallifelurker , we don’t agree on much, but I respect the fact that when it was pointed out to you that the Jewish board is clearly not the right place for this thread, you took that on board and we’re able to see another perspective rather than doubling down.

longest sentence ever.

Towerofsong · 19/11/2023 09:50

feralunderclass · 19/11/2023 08:56

With all due respect, as someone who is neither Jewish nor Palestinian, I think you need to educate yourself. Lecturing "us here in the UK" about "our shared values" (the government haven't been able to define 'shared values' so not sure what you are proposing?) about the "inhumane slaughter of innocent people" as if hatred is only an "imported" thing from those backward forrins. The Jewish posters will be able to tell you there's been plenty of hate from "our people". And according to international law, parts of Israel are enforced territorial capture. Please read up on the illegal settlements. However, this thread is about antisemitism so back to that.

I would like to go back to what I said about SBC. I'll not go into my opinion of him, but regarding his satire. He himself said that people internalise what you see. If any of the Jewish posters on here heard children (or adults) singing this song, would you not think it was antisemitic? From a safeguarding POV, this is considered a hate crime in school. If he'd kept his satire for the Jewish community, you can all laugh together if you think it's funny. But when someone takes this satire (which is usually full of stereotypes) into the public, where people might already hold these views, then this satire legitimizes their actions. "Oh but SBC sang this and he's Jewish, so it can't be antisemitic!" will be the cry of every person singing it. We'll not go into him satirizing Black, Muslim and Central Asians.

My ds has a physical disability, and there is a comedian with the same disability who performs satirical pieces regarding it. People with the disability can relate and find it funny. Fair enough. But when people without the disability, who have heard them start using the same terms/stereotypes for "bantz" it starts to legitimize name calling and become a not so micro aggression. If a picture of a Jewish man was drawn with horns on a synagogue or school, or anywhere, would this not be considered an act of jew hate or antisemitism? And I'll remind people that Jewish posters have called other Jewish people "antisemites" @Trulywonderful

Yes there is antisemitism from British people too, in fact any Jewish person will tell you that in the UK today it comes from 3 sources:

  1. The extreme far right (I would say this is very little at present)
  2. The moderate to extreme left (a lot)
  3. The Muslim community (incredibly pervasive)

Of course, 2) currently favours 3) so they march together and band together in this.

On Friday I had a maybe 20-25 year old British Muslim girl (2nd or maybe 3rd generation immigrant) telling me that of course Jews were OK (I'm pretty sure she thought that if she said that she was staying on the right side of the line) but that Israelis were Europeans who had no right ever to have set foot in Palestine in the first place and they should all get out. Had no interest in the fact that well over 50% of Israelis are from middle eastern Jewish families who were evicted to Israel, or in what she would like done about Israeli Arabs who are Druzim, Christian or Muslim who quite liked having an Israeli government and didn't want to be ruled instead by Hamas. She also avoided the question about where she thought the Israelis should go to and retreated back to mud slinging.

There is a lot of miseducation out there in some circles / communities, it is well known that teachers in schools with large Muslim populations are refraining from reaching about the holocaust because they are afraid of the response from parents.

So yes it does need to be taught and it does need to be made compulsory. I am pretty sure the majority of Muslims on the Pro-Palestinian marches would not have marched for Uyghur or Yeminite Muslims, they are marching because they believe Israelis are almost-white European colonialist settlers in what they think should be Muslim lands.

And I do have to say it is extremely rare to hear even one Muslim standing up and saying this is wrong or condemning Hamas / terrorism. I believe they are out there but it sure would be nice to hear from them. Maybe amongst themselves they denounce it but for the world they stay quiet because they won't criticise another Muslim, who knows.

Re SBC, I find him generally funny but he really goes way too close to the edge sometimes. In fact, sometimes he goes right over the edge. That is of course what satire is, but I do find it uncomfortable. But I also admire his ability to do that with a straight face. Maybe these clips should have a line at the bottom saying they are satire for those that don't understand that type of humour.

On the subject of Jewish people silencing other Jewish people or calling them antisemitic.....you can have antisemitic Jewish people just as you can have homophobic gay people. The external messages received become internalised.

But a lot of the time I think it is fear - if a Jewish person stands up and says I am Jewish but I don't like x y and z, the rest of the community fears that they are just encouraging the external antisemites. And it is true, because when Jews agree with anything that antisemites say, people say 'Oh look, even the Jews themselves admit it' and use it to give their cause more credence.

It's like if someone knows a prison officer and that officer discloses another officer was letting phones be smuggled in, that person will tell all their friends 'I know a prison officer and even they admitted that the prisons are rife with smuggling and that officers ignore it", and then when that gets to the next person it becomes 'phones and drugs are snuggled into every prison in the country, all the officers know about it, I know this on good authority because my mate is friends with a prison officer'. (apologies to any prison officers reading!). That is why Jewish people sometimes try to shut down other Jewish people.

25milesfromhome · 19/11/2023 09:37

If any of the Jewish posters on here heard children (or adults) singing this song, would you not think it was antisemitic?

In I heard any non Jewish children or adults singing this song I’d think they were antisemitic not the song. The song is so patently ridiculous it couldn’t be anything but satire so I’d also think they were a bit stupid.

Noelectricheating · 19/11/2023 09:36

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 18/11/2023 14:19

There seems to be an endless supply of useful idiots out there.

And no, this is not a personal insult but a social phenomenon.

This.

They post content from tic tok, insta and X and lots being used to promote hatred. The rise in anti semitism and also the idea that Bin Laden and his merry band and the merry band of Hamas are not the bad guys. I imagine they might feel differently if caught up in a terrorist attack though.

Parkingt111 · 19/11/2023 09:36

@mids2019
You said we in the uk have to remember that ultimately Gaza is a foreign conflict

In the next paragraph you go on to say
As shown by the Israeli government the UK stands with Israel

so ultimately despite the Israeli Gaza conflict both being foreign to the UK it's ok to take a stance as long as its pro Israeli

And those who protest or speak up against the massacre taking place in Gaza should be reminded it's nothing to do with us.

Can you see why this rhetoric is not only hypocritical but also problematic in a democracy like the UK?

In regards to the teaching of holocaust in schools I have said it myself that this is something that is lacking in the national curriculum. The best deterrent for racism and anti semitism is education and maybe schools start to realise that many are lacking in this and there needs to be steps taken to address this

feralunderclass · 19/11/2023 08:59

Sorry truly ignore that tag, I was saying that Jewish posters on here are silencing the voice of other Jewish people because they don't agree with them (and calling them antisemites and nuts) then claiming that Jewish people aren't allowed a voice.

feralunderclass · 19/11/2023 08:56

mids2019 · 19/11/2023 06:42

https://www.het.org.uk/about/holocaust-education-uk

I think this is important in terms of combating anti semtisim. We have a duty to teach about the holocaust in formal education settings and as a non Jew it certainly was one of the most informative (and disturbing) parts of my.education.

The formation of Israel was partly driven as a result of the industrialised genocide of European Jews and to fully contextualize the Gaza conflict these historical roots can't be forgotten.

I think part of the increase in anti semtism is due to some in the Muslim community diminishing the holocaust calling into question the scale and nature of this horrific global event. The diminishing of the holocaust leads to undermining reasons for the state of Israel and supports the erroneous narrative that Israel is just a byproduct of colonialism. We therefore get the anti Semitic (in my view) view that Israel exists simply as enforced territorial capture in the predominantly Muslim world.

We should not allow children to skip learning about WW2 and the holocaust simply because the consequences of the war does not for their cultures narrative. Removal of factual historical education allows conspiracy theories to fester in its absence and I am sure many on the 'peace marches' in the UK will possibly believe partly in these conspiracies.

We are holocaust denial of at least disrespect in the vandalizing of holocaust memorial signs and it shows that some really do wish to ignore this part of global history.

The ruthless slaughter on October 7th must have reawakened so many fears within the Israeli population and indeed the refrain 'never again' has never seemed as important.

We in the UK have to remember that ultimately Gaza is a foreign conflict and we as UK citizens should have shared values and respect for UK history including the epoch making WW2 and the holocaust which epitomized inhuman systematic slaughter of innocents. We should not have idiots climbing war memorials of desecrating important memorials within our country.

Let's celebrate our UK with its shared values and tolerance not import hatred from other parts of the world. As shown by the Israeli flag over parliament the UK stands with Israel and I think as a society we should abhor anti semitism in all its forms.

I note that Sachs Baron Cohen very cleverly parodied anti semitism with his Borat character. I think he has always wanted society to know about anti semitism and he has used comedy to this end.

With all due respect, as someone who is neither Jewish nor Palestinian, I think you need to educate yourself. Lecturing "us here in the UK" about "our shared values" (the government haven't been able to define 'shared values' so not sure what you are proposing?) about the "inhumane slaughter of innocent people" as if hatred is only an "imported" thing from those backward forrins. The Jewish posters will be able to tell you there's been plenty of hate from "our people". And according to international law, parts of Israel are enforced territorial capture. Please read up on the illegal settlements. However, this thread is about antisemitism so back to that.

I would like to go back to what I said about SBC. I'll not go into my opinion of him, but regarding his satire. He himself said that people internalise what you see. If any of the Jewish posters on here heard children (or adults) singing this song, would you not think it was antisemitic? From a safeguarding POV, this is considered a hate crime in school. If he'd kept his satire for the Jewish community, you can all laugh together if you think it's funny. But when someone takes this satire (which is usually full of stereotypes) into the public, where people might already hold these views, then this satire legitimizes their actions. "Oh but SBC sang this and he's Jewish, so it can't be antisemitic!" will be the cry of every person singing it. We'll not go into him satirizing Black, Muslim and Central Asians.

My ds has a physical disability, and there is a comedian with the same disability who performs satirical pieces regarding it. People with the disability can relate and find it funny. Fair enough. But when people without the disability, who have heard them start using the same terms/stereotypes for "bantz" it starts to legitimize name calling and become a not so micro aggression. If a picture of a Jewish man was drawn with horns on a synagogue or school, or anywhere, would this not be considered an act of jew hate or antisemitism? And I'll remind people that Jewish posters have called other Jewish people "antisemites" @Trulywonderful

Towerofsong · 19/11/2023 08:38

Yorkshirelass04 · 19/11/2023 08:26

It is unreasonable to expect every Jew to feel accountable for the terrible actions of the Israeli government. I agree with that, and it shouldn't lead to antisemitism.

However being critical of Israel is not antisemitism.

It depends what you mean by being critical of Israel

If you mean particular actions or policies of the Israeli government, then no, thats legitimate

If you are critical of Israel's existence, or dispute it's right to exist, that's antiSemitic.

To stay on the right side of the divide, you need to be specifically saying you are critical of a government policy, the government, a particular member of the government.

Not "Israel this, Israel that"

Yorkshirelass04 · 19/11/2023 08:26

It is unreasonable to expect every Jew to feel accountable for the terrible actions of the Israeli government. I agree with that, and it shouldn't lead to antisemitism.

However being critical of Israel is not antisemitism.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 19/11/2023 08:16

Towerofsong · 19/11/2023 07:45

That woman is representative of plenty of threads I've seen on social media.

There are also plenty of people refusing to condemn rape as a weapon of war....they seem to think it's legitimate resistance.

They would be condemning it if it was happening anywhere else in the world, but as it was done to Israelis it's fine.

Well, there are posts on MN calling the 7th October attacks a false flag event, so I'm not surprised at that.

mids2019 · 19/11/2023 08:07

@Towerofsong

excellent

Towerofsong · 19/11/2023 08:04

mids2019 · 19/11/2023 05:00

I would like to ask one of the fervent flag wavers at a 'Pro Palestine' rally how do you arrive peace and a two state solution in Israel and where the borders should be. I think the answer would be nothing in reality. The protesters care nothing about peace in reality and are a thinly veiled support of Hamas in many cases; these marches are ultimately anti Israel and a desire for some sort of maximal Palestinian state.

If we allow marches up and down this country which call for the eradication of the Israeli state weekend after weekend it is no wonder anti semitism increases because it's as if the UK in some sense actually sanctions it. We have had marches here in our small town where predominantly Muslims have shut down areas of the town centre and I think our local police have limited means to detect this in large crowds that are being anti Semitic.

It would be good to have some pro Israel displays based around getting hostages home and finding some kind of fair peace which does not include eradication of Israel but Info think there is a genuine fear of such a rally.

There is a prayer rally in London today, Sunday 19th

www.cufi.org.uk/events/never-again-is-now/ 4-5.30, this is organised by Christian Action against antisemitism

And another march next week, Sunday 26th organised by the campaign against antisemitism

Towerofsong · 19/11/2023 07:45

noblegiraffe · 18/11/2023 23:41

I think most people would agree Hamas had committed war crimes

This woman who phoned into LBC really didn't want to say that Hamas should even release the hostages they are holding.

https://x.com/lbc/status/1725914261606592614?s=61&t=U9XrcF693-JpMxeIueYG7g

That woman is representative of plenty of threads I've seen on social media.

There are also plenty of people refusing to condemn rape as a weapon of war....they seem to think it's legitimate resistance.

They would be condemning it if it was happening anywhere else in the world, but as it was done to Israelis it's fine.