The JC: Sacha Baron Cohen says ‘Tiktok is creating the biggest antisemitic movement since the Nazis‘

It certainly is. Respecting terrorists, full stop, shows the mind set of these people.

What a stupid thing to say, of course you can be racist towards Muslims because the majority of Muslims are not white. They suffer from racism and Islamophobia. The idea that only Jews are a race in the religious sense is a nonsense.

There are a lot of places fucked up by people (usually the British) drawing lines on maps. Why blame the people currently living there?

The actions of the Israeli governments over the years had been rather antagonistic what with building settlements and generally viewing the Palestinians as less important than them. It’s not the fact that Israel exists more that it (the government) haven’t exactly covered themselves in glory.

I’ve had a Google of those people Towerofsong mentioned. Admittedly they are arguably extremists, and not likely to represent the views of the average person, but do you not see how having people like that in charge may cause problems? I mean the UK had people like that (UKIP and NF spring to mind) but these guys are actually in power.

It was being disputed that teaching about the Holocaust would make any difference at all.

but the state of Israel as it stands is built upon the oppression of the 'other'

There were lots of new states being created in the area. Lebanon, for example, was created by the French and British in 1920. Or look at Jordan who also sought to extend its territory from the originally drawn borders.

There are a lot of places fucked up by people (usually the British) drawing lines on maps. Why blame the people currently living there?

I see what you are saying, but the state of Israel as it stands is built upon the oppression of the 'other'. Jewish people from all over the world have the right to come and live in this state, to the systemic human rights violations of the Palestinians. That needs to be acknowledged in the curriculum. I think it's very myopic to say Jewish people need a homeland and not address the fact that aspects of this homeland is illegally contravening international law on many counts.

A really excellent post, thank you.

@Towerofsong I think we could probably discuss this for hours and I'm sure there is alot we can both add that would broaden each others perspectives and maybe some that we would have to agree to disagree on so another time?
Good luck at the rally and hopefully the weather stays good

Let's hope it won't be him. Nor Ben Gvir, nor Smotrich, nor Mordechai Eliyahu.....

There are an awful lot of questions to be answered about how the hell this was able to happen and why it took the army 7 hours to get there and rescue people.

Here's a great example. Derailing discussions about antisemitism and creating a sense of blame that links all Jewish people to the behaviour of the Israeli government/IDF.

Yes.

I think discussion is really good and would love to hear from Pro Israel posters that doesn't simply deflect every question with Islamophobic comments or question the mental health or faculties of someone who calls out Israel for violating human rights and illegal land grabbing.

This

All the name calling and mud slinging bores me as much as the next man. I know Pro Palestinians (like me) are guilty of it as well.

Posts like the one by Towerofsong about* Netanyahu are interesting and actually informative. The one by kiki50* and the like less so

So the difficulty is:

”you can’t tar all Muslims with the same brush”
”Muslims believe x, y or z”.

You are left with two statements that are fundamentally contradictory. Either you will sit there and analyse, one by one, the beliefs of all 1bn + Muslims in the world at any given time (given that of course as anyone can believe anything, beliefs can also change over time), or you can accept that there are some things that Muslims DO believe.

Now given that Islam doesn’t have a single central doctrinal authority (like Protestantism there are many variants) you can’t really say “all Muslims believe x, y or z”. Because as far as it goes, as many Muslims as there are, there are Muslim beliefs. However there is one thing we can point to which indicates a fairly anti-Semitic ground from which this springs:

Hamas
Islamic Jihad
ISIS
The Iranian Caliphate
Al’queda
Hezbollah

are all explicitly Islamic organisations and they are all explicitly anti-Jewish (and this is a fairly small sample). I will note that Hamas in its recent revised constitution changes the name of its target from Jews to “Zionists”, but frankly how did it know that the 1,400 it murdered on the 7th October were all ‘Zionist’ Jews (I.e.: Jews allowed to be murdered) as opposed to just Jews that shouldn’t be murdered?

Islam has a problem with anti-semitism. Even if analysis of the Koran doesn’t specifically justify it, a vast quantity of Islamic scholarship has since justified Islamic anti-semitism. Even if we can’t say that Islam is anti semitic as such, we can ask the question, very fairly, of why does Islam provide such a breeding ground for such openly and directly anti-Semitic organisations?

No I'm not talking about that rumour, that was in 2007.

I did not label the entire Muslim community as anti Semitic

I said a large amount of modern antisemitism comes from that direction (I am sure they believe they are just legitimately criticising Israel, but it goes beyond that)

That may be an uncomfortable truth, but it is the truth. I also said it would be great to hear from Muslims who do condemn Hamas, and that I am sure they are out there but we do not hear from them.

I don't see that teaching about the Holocaust will help anyone see Israel's actions from a different angle. You don't form a safe state for one people by oppressing another,and indoctrinating the people that the 'other' are evil (see recent and historic government speech).

I think learning about the Holocaust as the industrialised murder of 6 million Jews called The Final Solution to the Jewish Question might well explain 1) the creation of Israel as not being merely some 'settler colonialist land grab' in the Middle East which some seem to portray it as, 2) the reaction of Israel to the systematic slaughter of Israelis on 7th October by a group that has a stated intention to wipe out the Jews.

Understanding that the desire to wipe out the Jews is a long-standing aim of many people, historically and today, would also explain that Jew-hatred for many goes beyond 'legitimate criticism of Israel' and isn't simply a 'reaction to Israel's treatment of Palestinians over the years'.

Firstly I want to clarify that my sentence should have said 'SOME schools in areas with a Muslim majority". I wrote a long post on my phone and missed a word.

It has been reported in the media and I believe there was a study / report written on this as well. I am going out shortly but will try to dig it out. It was about teachers avoiding controversy where the history they would teach would contradict what a child was taught at home.

In fairness I was never taught about the Irish famine at school and remember being outraged when I heard about it.

If Muslims come on here and say actually they were taught about it I will be absolutely delighted to be wrong.

It was me that said you sounded like an EDL bot, and that was within the context of you being from the profession you are - you could have added a really good argument, but instead were just constantly quoting the Daily Mail. I think discussion is really good and would love to hear from Pro Israel posters that doesn't simply deflect every question with Islamophobic comments or question the mental health or faculties of someone who calls out Israel for violating human rights and illegal land grabbing.

Of course, there is now the issue that, more than ever, Israelis will want to know they are safe and their borders secure and need a leader who can deliver that.

Surely that wouldn’t be him though since the attacks happened on his watch. He sounds like a massive liability.

Many Israelis already thought Netanyahu had gone too far over a year ago. He has his supporters who want to see strong security for Israel and think he is the one to deliver that.
But over multiple elections in multiple years he failed to get enough of a majority to form a coalition and stay in power. He was desperate to stay in power as while he is in power he cannot be tried on corruption charges that are hanging over him.

Eventually, he formed a coalition with the most extreme right wing parties in Israel and and with the Ultra Orthodoxy by promising both of them enough of what they wanted. Which is why we are hearing extreme right wing messages from those people. He then proceeded to try to dismantle the power of the Supreme Court so they could no longer say that actions voted for by the Knesset (parliament) were unreasonable. There has been a lot of civil unrest in Israel due to this. Israeli businesses left Israel. Israelis started talking about what they would do if there was civil war.

An awful lot of Israelis - I would guesstimate AT LEAST half, wanted him gone long ago.

Of course, there is now the issue that, more than ever, Israelis will want to know they are safe and their borders secure and need a leader who can deliver that.

talking of tik tok, i've wondered at the age of
some posters here. I can't believe that adults would espouse some of the more
ridiculous arguments seen on here. Standing shoulder to shoulder with hate groups, terror organisations, proud anti semites.

Tower, I agree particularly as to that 1 - 3 list of anti semites. I also agree with Parking that of course not all UK muslims are anti semitic. Just like the 99% of the UKwhich is Chrsitian (about 47%) and/or atheist (52% ) (about 65m people) there are a vast range of different people with different views. I do think some people are not being exposed to all view points and I include myself in that which is why I feel like Daniel in the lion's den on the vast vast number of anti Israel Mumsnet posts at times but keep going because I want people to see other view points and perhaps come to realise why the USA and UK support Israel and are likely to continue to do so.

However I don't think it is wrong to blame new anti semitism coming from certain groups. I was called an EDL bot the other day on MN which is very funny as presumably the EDL are the last likely supporters of Jews of almost any group in the UK (and for the record I am not an EDL bot) - it was in the context of my saying I support democracies and think they are better than theocracies and/or dictatorships like Iran and North Korea.

If there are 3.9m muslims in the UK our of our 67m population that is not a large percentage and plenty of those will not be anti semitic. There seem to be some studies eg https://www.timesofisrael.com/44-of-uk-muslims-back-anti-semitic-conspiracy-theories-poll-finds/ which I think are hopeful as they say the more integrated people are the more reasonable are their views. That is why I appreciate everyone who bothers to contribute on this topic on MN no matter what their views as I believe in freedom of speech and talking to each other.

@BethDuttonsTwin @feralunderclass Thank you for correcting me on that
Mumsnet won't allow me to edit that post so il add it here

To do so would be islamophobic

You are correct, it would be Islamophobic, rather than racist. However people (incorrectly but) commonly use 'racist' to denote prejudice or 'anti' sentiment towards any group.

@etmoiandme thank you for clarifying that.

But I think to label the whole Muslim community as a source of anti-semitism would not only be incorrect but also racist.

Muslims on mass are not a race. In the most respectful way possible, can we please not start using the racism slur and just allow the discussion to progress? As it clearly doesn’t apply here.