The JC: Sacha Baron Cohen says ‘Tiktok is creating the biggest antisemitic movement since the Nazis‘

Most people seem to think Israel was thought to needto be there for the Holocaust survivors and the Jewish indegenious people on the land in 1948.

However it needed to be there for the Jewish people in the middle east too. Before 1948 Slowly they were getting ethnically cleansed from the middle east. In many countries there were pogroms and riots. Jewish villages were burnt and people murdered. Also a middle eastern Jewish person living in a Muslim run person was thought of as dhimmi. A second classed citizen that pays more taxes. That often was only allowed to own certain businesses or do certain jobs (something that happened in Europe over the years too). In Morocco Jewish people were forced to where embarrassing special clothes. So everyone knew they were a Jew. As far as I am aware to this day in Egypt a Jewish man can only marry a Jewish woman ( Thrule may have changed I don't now but it was still in place 10 years ago)

After 1948 the ethic cleansing of Jewish people in the middle east stepped up even faster because of the conflicts happening.

Sorry this image is about 5 years old and the number of Arabs in Israel has gone up. Plus the other numbers may be a bit different now but it gives you an idea of what has happened concerning Indigenous Jewish people living in the middle east. Hence why a large percentage of the citizens of Israel have middle eastern heritage not American or European. Social media has a lot to answer for with their white coloniser talk!

Unfortunately Jordan has had the land allocated for the Arabs since the war in 1948 when the surrounding states attacked Israel after it was declared a state. A barely spoken about land grab happened. At the time they also took the west bank but years later during a way Israel won it back again

No I’m certain the West Bank and Gaza were in the land allocated to the allocated to the Arab population.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/United-Nations-Resolution-181

During the 1948 war Jordon took control of part of Palestine (now known as the West Bank) and Egypt held Gaza. Most of the Palestinian refugees ended up there. Israel took control of these territories in the six day war but their claim to them is disputed.

Crikey Reallife, when I read your post it simply said 'fair enough'. That was a long and late edit!

Yeah sorry, I edited it just after I’d posted it though.

Crikey Reallife, when I read your post it simply said 'fair enough'. That was a long and late edit!

I did say at the beginning of that post that

"The land was spit because the British were leaving and the Jews and Arabs could barely stop killing each other for years before 1948."

Actually the two state solution was not what you think originally. The British Mandate was massive and the part allocation to the Arabs was much bigger than the Jews because it was going population at the time and other factors. I will add a picture to illustrate to you.

Unfortunately Jordan has had the land allocated for the Arabs since the war in 1948 when the surrounding states attacked Israel after it was declared a state. A barely spoken about land grab happened. At the time they also took the west bank but years later during a way Israel won it back again. Egypt took the land that is Gaza during a war. However it was taken back again after a different war. The two state solution changed to what we think of as West bank and Gaza because the land that was Jordan isn't going to be handed back to the Arabs in the Holy Land. Therefore they need somewhere of their own to live.

Therehas been various wars, borders have changed as happens in wars and complicated!

One third to the Jews which Is Israel, west bank and Gaza

My understanding is that the West Bank and Gaza (and east Jerusalem) were to go to the Palestinians not the Jewish. That was the two state solution wasn’t it?

These are just a few examples of Arabs attacks on Jewish people on the land before 1948 when Israel declared themselves a state and why the international community came up with the plan because the British forces were leaving
The Palestinians weren’t the only ones doing the attacking though

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks

The land was spit because the British were leaving and the Jews and Arabs could barely stop killing each other for years before 1948. It was fought by the international community that the only way to try and stop a full on massacre or war was to spit the land. Two thirds went to the Arabs, which is now know as Jordan. One third to the Jews which Is Israel, west bank and Gaza. The Arab countries surrounding attacking in after declared a state meant the west bank and Gaza areas have changed control between different states a few times. Hence why it has been difficult for those civilians living there to find peace.

These are just a few examples of Arabs attacks on Jewish people on the land before 1948 when Israel declared themselves a state and why the international community came up with the plan because the British forces were leaving:

Safed looting 1834,
Hebron massacre 1834,
Attack on Safed 1838,
Jaffa deportations 1917,
Attack on Tel Hai 1920,
Jaffa riots 1921,
the riots 1929,
the riots in 1936

But other than that, life was not awsome before jews had independence!

Just read this thread about Nigel Farage being on I am Celebrity and the antisemitic conspiracy theories he has been spreading in the past https://x.com/peterwalker99/status/1726207848651325670?s=61&t=U9XrcF693-JpMxeIueYG7g

Not sure he should be allowed a platform on a family show.

Fair enough.

My point was that if you’re going to say that it was necessary for Israel to exist because of the Holocaust you should bare in mind the Palestinian Arabs were not to blame for that yet they ended up being turfed out of their land because of it. I’m aware Zionism predates WW2 but there was a large influx of people into Palestine after the war for obvious reasons.

I’m sure there were tensions between the Muslims and the Jewish prior to this. There always has been (with some involvement from Christianity as well).

Ah I see, when you said Arabs you didn't mean Arabs but specifically the people who were displaced by the creation of Israel. The wider Arab world had recent history of killing or persecuting Jews (and a lot of the neighbouring countries pretty much emptied of Jews when Israel was created as a place for them to go).

When you said Europe had responsibility for the Holocaust, you could have afforded to be a little bit more specific there too.

@Sparklytops those people are rare on here.

The way people talk about Muslims and the justification for the ethnic cleansing of historic Palestinian one would think the holocaust was caused by Arabs and not the white man pretending to be Christian. Then you have those with Nazi roots like Von Der len supporting the current genocide. 55 million indigenous people killed by Europeans across the Americas and its Muslims that need lessons on the genocide apparently.

And those who have no defence just attempt to silence.

I don't praise any attacks, but I do wish to banish settlers from any illegal settlements. Just as the settlements were built on illegal land, they can be built elsewhere. High rises can be built. Look how many are/were living in such a small space in Gaza. No one should have the right to live anywhere to the severe detriment to others. And I don't believe that anyone that had a Jewish grandmother should be allowed to live there simply based on that. More land will be required over time until there is nothing of Palestine left. It's already hugely imbalanced as it is - Israel has approx 80% of the land for the same population as Palestinians.

And what about the pogrom in Baghdad in 1941 before the creation of Israel that I linked to?

Bagdad is not in Palestine, it’s in Iraq.

You cannot blame all issues with Jews in the Middle East on the founding of Israel.

I wasn’t trying to. I was talking about the role of the Holocaust with regards to the founding of Israel as that was what we were talking about at the time.

With respect to the founding of Israel there were increasing hostilities in Palestine after Jewish people started going there at the end of the war.

And what about the pogrom in Baghdad in 1941 before the creation of Israel that I linked to?

You cannot blame all issues with Jews in the Middle East on the founding of Israel.

Because Jews were always well-treated in the Middle East before Israel was created?

I didn’t say that. With respect to the founding of Israel there were increasing hostilities in Palestine after Jewish people started going there at the end of the war. A response, as you yourself argued, to the Holocaust. That’s why the partition was suggested because the the two groups wouldn’t stop fighting.

Yes I will leave the thread.

Lol.

And "From the River to the Sea" is being sung on the streets of England but never in that way even though they have been asked to stop, and a reasonable person who didn't want to be misinterpreted would have stopped by now?

With respect to the Holocaust it’s worth remembering it was the Europeans who were responsible for this but the Arabs who ended up paying the price.

Because Jews were always well-treated in the Middle East before Israel was created? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farhud

For some, it is absolutely the fact that Israel exists.
For Hamas maybe, for the average person on MN probably not.

I am in no way justifying the actions of Israel, which are abhorrent, but if people take issue with the creation of Israel in the first place, how can you say that it's not the fact that Israel exists?
The people who took exception to the creation of Israel are the people it displaced. Of course the fact is Israel does exist and if it were to cease to exist this would only repeat the wrong.
Hamas don’t care but then they are terrorists. It’s possible the average Palestinian would be quite happy with the two state solution if it meant and end to the hostilities

With respect to the Holocaust it’s worth remembering it was the Europeans who were responsible for this but the Arabs who ended up paying the price.

Reading through the board last night, somebody pointed out how much of experts people suddenly are on Gaza and Israel How they know so much about the long standing history between the two states. They also said those same people never showed interest before this latest turn of events. I thought that really summed up well why so many repetitive threads are turning up.

Those who really know their thing, talk eloquently without emotion.

Not remotely comparable, this is not simply about botched 'lines' /borders. That deeply minimizes the damage done. Israel, as a state for Jewish people is by definition racist.

And we come back to the Holocaust. Why, in the circumstances of the time, might the creation of a Jewish state might not have been considered an act of racism, some sort of Jewish supremacy thing?

The actions of the Israeli governments over the years had been rather antagonistic what with building settlements and generally viewing the Palestinians as less important than them. It’s not the fact that Israel exists more that it (the government) haven’t exactly covered themselves in glory.

For some, it is absolutely the fact that Israel exists.

As for those who praise attacks on Israel as 'resistance against settler colonialism', what is their end goal regarding the 'settler colonists'? To make peace with them? Or to overthrow them and banish them?

I am in no way justifying the actions of Israel, which are abhorrent, but if people take issue with the creation of Israel in the first place, how can you say that it's not the fact that Israel exists?

Not remotely comparable, this is not simply about botched 'lines' /borders. That deeply minimizes the damage done. Israel, as a state for Jewish people is by definition racist. As is any place that awards a person rights/citizenship based on their race. One could argue that if the state allowed only Jewish people in and got on with things then fine, no problem there (and I think a homeland for any marginalised group is a great thing). But that isn't what has happened - the systemic racism has been the cause of great atrocities for the Palestinians. 7 million displaced worldwide, murdered, tortured, imprisoned. Denied medical care, had land/homes confiscated. This isn't something that happened just a long time ago, it's still happening. Now obviously they have the 7/10 terror attack as justification, but this behaviour is nothing new.
People say 'why can the Jewish people not live in peace' whilst completely ignoring that Israel has never let the Palestinians live in peace, in the name of Judaism. This is going to be the driver of so much further antisemitism I believe across the world. They conflate Jewish people with Israel and it's actions, even though sections of Jewish people are anti Zionist.

Seriously? First of all, SBC is Jewish. He's a comedian. He's well known for taking the piss. This was satire.