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Conflict in the Middle East

Be aware of misinformation seen regarding Palestine

914 replies

whatswrongwiththeworldddd · 13/11/2023 17:44

There's a lot of misinformation/propaganda spreading around and this thread is to raise awareness of the ones circulating. Here's one for example:

www.instagram.com/p/Czh2sF_LaUp/?igshid=anFmemQ3OGxpMGpu

Please share any you come across.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
96
Livelovebehappy · 14/11/2023 18:52

FourCandlesNotForkHandles · 14/11/2023 15:00

If you look at The Times Of Israel the Israelis themselves have said they are not investigating rape and torture.

Until they do this is misinformation.

But there are videos seen by multiple journalists which show the poor Israeli girl who was raped and murdered, being paraded naked round the streets in Gaza being spat on by Palestinians. Just because you haven’t had the experience of seeing these videos, it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. I know you might not want to admit it happened, but it’s misinformation in itself to deny it happened, when there is evidence out there that it did….

Alcemeg · 14/11/2023 18:37

Puzzledandpissedoff · 14/11/2023 18:07

In 2011 Israel exchanged one kidnapped soldier (who had been held hostage by Hamas for 5 years) for 1027 prisoners

Errr - HOW many?? Confused

As you suggested, so much for proportionality, which doesn't work when dealing with terrorists anyway

Quite.

I vaguely remember this being on the news at the time. There's a Wiki entry about it. About 280 of those released in exchange had been imprisoned for acts of terrorism, and of course an awful lot of them went on to commit more...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Shalit_prisoner_exchange

Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Shalit_prisoner_exchange

Puzzledandpissedoff · 14/11/2023 18:07

In 2011 Israel exchanged one kidnapped soldier (who had been held hostage by Hamas for 5 years) for 1027 prisoners

Errr - HOW many?? Confused

As you suggested, so much for proportionality, which doesn't work when dealing with terrorists anyway

FourCandlesNotForkHandles · 14/11/2023 17:38

EasterIssland · 14/11/2023 16:46

Remember when Israel claim that hamas had stolen the fuel they had delivered to a hospital and the hospital said they had no clue what fuel they were talking about ?? Well was a lie , what a surprise! Can’t Israel see that their credibility is close to null?

https://twitter.com/SaeedDiCaprio/status/1724442805966160210

Blimey.!
They haven’t even got the sense to use someone that’s unknown.

Alcemeg · 14/11/2023 17:35

notsoready4school · 14/11/2023 17:06

‘ allergic to bullying’ is a strong stance. Does that mean you were at the pro Palestine marches pre 7/10? Or do your allergies have specific symptoms?

I'm talking about bullying on MN, where any comment not conforming to the "Fuck Israel" narrative is met with derision, hostility, and facile insinuations (such as your question here).

Humdingerydoo · 14/11/2023 17:33

Here we go again. "Proportional response". What would a proportional response from Israel have been?

In 2011 Israel exchanged one kidnapped soldier (who had been held hostage by Hamas for 5 years) for 1027 prisoners. No one complained it wasn't proportional. So therefore I assume Israel has a right to kidnap 240 (or whatever the most up-to-date figure is) x 1027? So over 240000.

Proportionality isn't a thing in a war against terrorists.

notsoready4school · 14/11/2023 17:06

Alcemeg · 14/11/2023 12:53

This is how I feel too, let alone the open celebrations of 7 October in the streets.

As you can see, though, MN is overrun with posters who will insist it was all perfectly justified, unlike Israel's response.

I'm not Jewish or Israeli, by the way... just allergic to bullying.

‘ allergic to bullying’ is a strong stance. Does that mean you were at the pro Palestine marches pre 7/10? Or do your allergies have specific symptoms?

EasterIssland · 14/11/2023 16:46

Remember when Israel claim that hamas had stolen the fuel they had delivered to a hospital and the hospital said they had no clue what fuel they were talking about ?? Well was a lie , what a surprise! Can’t Israel see that their credibility is close to null?

https://twitter.com/SaeedDiCaprio/status/1724442805966160210

Be aware of misinformation seen regarding Palestine
Be aware of misinformation seen regarding Palestine
Xenia · 14/11/2023 16:44

Sometimes disputes have to be resolved with a lot of compromise and even land division eg India and Pakistan - partition was not perfect but it was a way to deal with a difficult situation with people moving in various directions. Some of my ancestors had to leave Scottish lands (clearances) - I doubt I will be getting land from Scotland although may be I will have a claim.

ScrollingLeaves · 14/11/2023 16:13

Here is the Al Jazeera interview with Seth Moulton on ‘Bottom Line’ today which I mentioned in my previous post.
https://www.aljazeera.com/program/the-bottom-line/2023/11/11/should-israel-learn-from-us-mistakes-in-iraq-and-afghanistan

Because of questions put to Seth Moulton by the interviewer, you can see more about where this idea of evacuation of Gaza
for humanitarian purposes might ultimately lead than you can from his statement quoted in my previous post from NBC.

Should Israel learn from US mistakes in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Rep. Seth Moulton says Israel is heading to a ‘Forever War’ by focusing on military solutions to political problems.

https://www.aljazeera.com/program/the-bottom-line/2023/11/11/should-israel-learn-from-us-mistakes-in-iraq-and-afghanistan

ScrollingLeaves · 14/11/2023 15:53

MonsieurCrapeau · Today 14:16

“whatswrongwiththeworldddd · Today 13:44

A proportionate response wouldn't be to wipe out an entire race to take over their land. The IDF have outright admitted their task is to occupy, cleanse and make Gaza their own and they won't stop until they've completed their mission.”

Ironic that you’re saying this on a thread about misinformation.

It is not necessarily all misinformation. The prominent Israeli politician/finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, wrote a paper called the ‘Decisive Plan’ to resolve the Israeli Palestinian conflict once and for all.
In the plan he suggests among other things that all Gazans should emigrate to a tent camp in Egypt to start with, but then not come back. They should be given incentives to agree to this.

The actual document is within this article linked below. So even if someone might think the article is biased, the document can speak for itself. It itself is not misinformation.
https://www.972mag.com/smotrich-decisive-plan-israeli-public/

Here is more about this man in the New York Times March 2023.

This March headline reads:
”As Israel’s Crises Pile Up, a Far-Right Minister Is a Common Thread
Bezalel Smotrich, the finance minister, is a longtime advocate of contentious plans to overhaul the judiciary. He has also exacerbated tensions with Palestinians and Israel’s allies.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/31/world/middleeast/israel-smotrich-protests.html

Today an American politician Seth Moulton was recommending that all Gazans should be helped to leave in order to keep them safe, while Israel goes after Hamas, but they must be given assurance they will return.

This was in an interview by Al Jazeera on ‘Bottom Line’ :

“12:30
The Bottom Line
U.S. Congressman Seth Moulton argues that Israel is creating more future enemies by killing so many innocent civilians in Gaza.”

He was entirely sympathetic to the Gazan civilians, yet at the same time what he was advocating was basically using carrots to get them into Egypt, with what could easily prove to be false promises about a future return.

Who can promise they can go back later? Who would enforce that condition?

There would not be any guarantee of return. (Look at the unfulfilled promises of safe asylum to those Afghanistanis and their families who had helped the U.K. and U.S.)

It is easy to make ‘promises’ for the future. Palestinians already know from the Nakba that they would not go back.

People may distrust Al Jazeera but Seth Moulton was speaking for all to hear. There is no misinformation that he said what he said - all be it he meant it altruistically. Getting Palestinians out of Gaza is seen as an humanitarian aim in some quarters.

Here is Seth Moulton again in
this NBC article

www.nbcboston.com/news/local/moulton-urges-israel-to-make-tactical-change-and-help-civilians-out-of-gaza/3180735/

Read Moulton's full statement:
From the outset of this conflict, I have urged Israel to learn from America's successes and failures in the War on Terror. One of the best tactical and moral decisions our forces made was to urge civilians to evacuate cities like Najaf and Fallujah, giving them time to leave before clearing the area of terrorists. An estimated 90% of civilians left Fallujah before U.S. forces entered the city, limiting civilian casualties to a fraction of the number killed in Gaza already. Just as importantly, that strategy weakened the insurgency as some supporters gave up instead of fighting. U.S. Marines eliminated the rest.

The IDF should adopt a similar strategy. Fundamentally, it's not a so-called "humanitarian pause," as many have urged, which suggests temporary relief before going back to status quo, but a civilian evacuation, both of the hostages (through negotiation) and innocent Palestinians (through a surge of aid). In addition to providing safe corridors and safe harbor for fleeing civilians, humanitarian aid must be a continuous and integral part of Israel's military operation. This is another key lesson from Iraq and Afghanistan. By doing so, the IDF will demonstrate both to Palestinians and the rest of the world that it is living up to its commitment to protect Palestinian life. It will also starve Hamas of fighters and support.

This would be an important tactical change. Israel must provide a dramatic alternative to remaining in Northern Gaza, and they achieve that not with a minimum of aid but with a massive surge of aid to the South, enough to get civilians to leave despite Hamas' evil efforts to make them stay. The IDF must also show Palestinians that they will be safe where the aid is located, and I suspect Israel can win some international partners in that effort.

To be clear: getting the hostages out remains a top priority. With hostages scattered in tunnels throughout Gaza, saving them will come through diplomatic negotiations, not military means — another reason for Israel to pursue this approach.

Israel has the unequivocal right and responsibility to defend itself against terrorism. I am also deeply concerned by the reports of massive civilian casualties in Gaza.

Of course, if Hamas actually cared about the Palestinian people, the group would surrender before Israel has to go in and eliminate it. But since that is unlikely to happen, it's important for Israel to keep in mind another fundamental lesson we learned in Iraq and Afghanistan: that you can never create more terrorists than you kill. Civilian casualties ultimately help Hamas' recruiting. It is therefore both a moral and military imperative for Israel to reduce innocent suffering as it executes its operations moving forward.

The Israeli public has embraced the Smotrich doctrine

The internalization of the minister's 'Decisive Plan' is evident in the public support for a new ultimatum for Gaza: emigration or annihilation.

https://www.972mag.com/smotrich-decisive-plan-israeli-public

MCOut · 14/11/2023 15:51

@Iwantcakeeveryday on that I think there needs to be a very clear delineation between the events that took place right after October 7 and the Pro Palestine marches.

The first were abhorrent. There is very obviously a difference between violent resistance which targets the military, police or infrastructure, and that which targets civilians. I recognise that unfortunately, there may be participants in the marches who took part, but that cannot be a reason to delegitimise the voices of everybody else who just want to see a ceasefire and for their government to behave ethically.

FourCandlesNotForkHandles · 14/11/2023 15:07

MonsieurCrapeau · 14/11/2023 14:16

Ironic that you’re saying this on a thread about misinformation.

Ironic that they’ve just announced it on the news

FourCandlesNotForkHandles · 14/11/2023 15:00

Iwantcakeeveryday · 14/11/2023 12:58

I should have paid closer attention to your thread title, I mistakenly thought you were starting a thread about misinformation on the entire conflict, but you're not are you. Your post here shows clearly your agenda. Those people were victims of a terrorist organisation and to blame Israel is despicable. Hamas brutally massacred, raped and tortured them and are probably still doing so to any that remain alive.

If you look at The Times Of Israel the Israelis themselves have said they are not investigating rape and torture.

Until they do this is misinformation.

FourCandlesNotForkHandles · 14/11/2023 14:55

Iwantcakeeveryday · 14/11/2023 12:46

Well I think it is beyond insensitive to march after what happened to Israelis on the 7th, to step up the marches after that is just wrong. Where are the marches for the victims of Hamas? Having watched some videos of interviews with survivors, I feel very angry at the one sided response by protesters in the west- as if we ourselves didn't respond to our own terrorism incidents with war. Who the fuck are we to tell any other nation what to do with terrorists?

No one is stopping people marching for the victims of Hamas.
Im sure the UK and US government would be more than happy to let that go ahead.

MonsieurCrapeau · 14/11/2023 14:16

whatswrongwiththeworldddd · 14/11/2023 13:44

A proportionate response wouldn't be to wipe out an entire race to take over their land. The IDF have outright admitted their task is to occupy, cleanse and make Gaza their own and they won't stop until they've completed their mission.

Ironic that you’re saying this on a thread about misinformation.

Iwantcakeeveryday · 14/11/2023 14:00

MCOut · 14/11/2023 13:53

While I don’t think anybody should be pretending that these marches cause absolutely no harm, it’s not reasonable to expect that the world will watch Israel murder upwards of 10,000 civilians and stay silent while they continue, to avoid antisemitism.

I think that’s the blunt truth for me. It is important to recognise the injustice in what British Jewish people are facing because it is by no means fair and it shouldn’t be happening. However, it’s for the authorities to deal with this and they are not doing that. The situation in Gaza is ongoing and while the PM’s response continues to be so wholly unacceptable the marches cannot be discontinued in good conscience.

Edited

Fair comments. I think peoples frustrations are with the authorities not dealing with the issues and lots of people denying that there has been issues of anti semitism at all. The marches starting before Israel responded so they haven't just been about a ceasefire, even if they are now. I support calls for a ceasefire, I just don't think the marches are wise given the current atmosphere.

MCOut · 14/11/2023 13:53

While I don’t think anybody should be pretending that these marches cause absolutely no harm, it’s not reasonable to expect that the world will watch Israel murder upwards of 10,000 civilians and stay silent while they continue, to avoid antisemitism.

I think that’s the blunt truth for me. It is important to recognise the injustice in what British Jewish people are facing because it is by no means fair and it shouldn’t be happening. However, it’s for the authorities to deal with this and they are not doing that. The situation in Gaza is ongoing and while the PM’s response continues to be so wholly unacceptable the marches cannot be discontinued in good conscience.

Iwantcakeeveryday · 14/11/2023 13:45

dadoodoodoo · 14/11/2023 13:21

@Iwantcakeeveryday - based on your assertions I'm certainly not being stupid. You seem to suggest the palestinian population has asked for this shitshow and we have no right to legitimately protest against our Government's support of Israel and it's massively disproportionate response to 7th October and blatant disregard for humanitarian law

NO. The Palestinian people did not, neither did the Israeli citizens. People are talking about the actions of governments/states and terrorist organisations on these threads. When discussing war, ' there are no good guys' clearly isn't talking about innocent civilians. How fucking ridiculous. I was clearly saying neither side in this is in the right.
A Pro Palestinian march after Hamas attacked Israel is disgusting to me.

FOJN · 14/11/2023 13:44

Trulywonderful · 14/11/2023 11:16

Sorry not the same at all

The Gazens are help captive by there own birth place and politics of the area. Many do not have a choice about those things and no way to change them

Marchers have a choice about protesting on marches that have an ex Hamas member and some well known Jew haters organising it. They also could easily on mass remove hate signs from antisemitic idiots or handover people to the police. Protesters should not march unless they understand what they are marching for but as we have seen most are laughing smiling and out for a jolly. Therefore having seen this myself in London the marches are mostly one big bad faith actor as the saying goes.

Sounds like you subscribe to the idea of guilt by association but selectively apply it.

Do you think you know the motives and information level of everyone attending these marches?

You are right people do have a choice about whether they march or not, you also have a choice about whether you generalise about millions of people and hold them accountable for others.

Lots of people claim the situation is complex until it comes to censorship and then it all becomes very simple for them; anyone who disagree with you has bad motives and should self censor or be silenced.

whatswrongwiththeworldddd · 14/11/2023 13:44

A proportionate response wouldn't be to wipe out an entire race to take over their land. The IDF have outright admitted their task is to occupy, cleanse and make Gaza their own and they won't stop until they've completed their mission.

OP posts:
whatswrongwiththeworldddd · 14/11/2023 13:39

@Alcemeg
I'm not sure what you'd call a "proportionate" response to 7 October, but I don't think it's fair to measure it in numbers. Especially as Hamas ensures maximum civilian casualties in Gaza.

*Israel ensures maximum civilian casualties in Gaza.

OP posts:
dadoodoodoo · 14/11/2023 13:21

@Iwantcakeeveryday - based on your assertions I'm certainly not being stupid. You seem to suggest the palestinian population has asked for this shitshow and we have no right to legitimately protest against our Government's support of Israel and it's massively disproportionate response to 7th October and blatant disregard for humanitarian law

Alcemeg · 14/11/2023 13:18

whatswrongwiththeworldddd · 14/11/2023 12:57

@Alcemeg As you can see, though, MN is overrun with posters who will insist it was all perfectly justified, unlike Israel's response.

Sounds like you believe Israelis response is proportionate to what happened on7/10 and that you support genocide.

I'm not sure what you'd call a "proportionate" response to 7 October, but I don't think it's fair to measure it in numbers. Especially as Hamas ensures maximum civilian casualties in Gaza.

Iwantcakeeveryday · 14/11/2023 13:18

dadoodoodoo · 14/11/2023 13:16

@Iwantcakeeveryday "No, some of us just don't support terrorists and the brutalisation of women and can see that there are no good guys in this conflict. None" -are you really lumping the whole of Gaza's population into that camp, who are bearing the greatest burden of the conflict?

are you really suggesting I am referring to any civilian with zero power in this conflict? That includes us being responsible for our own governments. Don't; be so stupid.