Be aware of misinformation seen regarding Palestine

Anyone who thinks they can say clearly whose 'country it is', has little knowledge of the history of the region. This thread was never about misinformation, clearly as it is full of instagram and aljazeera links.

@ScrollingLeaves Apologies, I didn’t meat to make it sound like it was your words, I worded that clumsily. It’s the Palestinian Chronicle that I am objecting to. They have made a very dubious decision to insert the question “so who killed the civilians?” before the quote to make it sound like that’s ip
for discussion. Why would they do that?

Takoneko · Today 00:02
If everyone knows that Hamas killed the festival goers why would you have the subtitle “So who killed the civilians at the Festival?”**

That was not my headline but part of the Palestinian Chronicle within which the Haaretz article was quoted.

I stated that what I had written out was from The Palestinian Chronicle - because the actual Haaretz article needed paying for.

Then I gave a link to the actual Haaretz source-article. That was before I found the other poster’s free Haaretz Hebrew link to the same.

I was going to post another translation from a Haaretz report linked in that same article (from the list of links screen-shotted in my last post - ‘….hid in the fridge’).

But as it clearly describes a massacre by ‘the terrorists’ including a first hand account it would need a TRIGGER WARNING so I decided it would be better not to.

People who would like to read anything else can translate for themselves by pasting the Haaretz Hebrew article into Chrome.

Here is the Haaretz article translated by Google translate so no doubt not all the translation or expression is perfect.

The screen shot is for a part I couldn’t copy as it was all of links.

If you paste the Hebrew Haaretz article into Google Chrome you can translate it. Then you can follow up with some links. It is perfectly clear that Haaretz reports that Hamas/the terrorists committed a massacre at the music festival.
……….

Security policy
Assessment in the security establishment: Hamas did not know in advance about the Nova festival, and recognized it from the air
The police investigation found that Hamas planned to reach Kibbutz Reim and other kibbutzim, and found out about the party in real time. It also shows that a military helicopter that fired at terrorists apparently also hit some revelers

Joshua (Josh) Breiner
11:48, November 18, 2023

There is a growing assessment in the security establishment that the terrorists who carried out the massacre on October 7 did not know in advance about the Nova festival held near Kibbutz Ra'im, and decided to come to the place after discovering that a mass event was taking place there. The security system's assessment relies, among other things, on the investigations of the terrorists and the investigation of the incident by the police, from which it appears that the terrorists intended to reach Kibbutz Ra'im and nearby kibbutzim. According to a police source, an investigation into the incident also revealed that an IDF combat helicopter that arrived at the scene from the Ramat David base fired at the terrorists and apparently also hit some of the revelers who were there. According to the police, 364 people were killed at the festival

Senior officials estimate that Hamas found out about the existence of the party using drones or parachutes, and directed the terrorists to the location in their communication system. In a video from a body camera of one of the terrorists, he is heard asking a captured citizen for directions to reach the bad guys, even though he was in a different area. One of the findings that strengthen the assessment, according to the police and other security officials, is that the first terrorists arrived at the party from the direction of Route 232
and not from the direction of the fence.

List of links as in the screen shot.

In addition, according to police sources, the party was planned to be held on Thursday and Friday, and on Tuesday evening of the same week, the army approved the organizers of the event to hold it on Saturday as well, after the request of the organizers. The change at the last minute reinforces the assessment that Hamas did not know about the incident

We estimate that about 4,400 people were present at the event, the vast majority of whom managed to escape following a decision to disperse the event that was made four minutes after the rocket barrage," says a senior police officer. The police analysis shows that many of the party participants managed to escape because it was decided to stop the party half an hour before shots were heard.

They also aren’t juxtaposing some hit against 364 murdered. The ones hit will be amongst the 364 murdered and “some” is a very vague amount. There is nothing to suggest what proportion of those 364 are the “some” that they are talking about.

Those accidentally hit by Israeli helicopters were still murdered by Hamas… in the same way we would consider those who jumped from buildings on 9/11 to have been murdered by Al Qaeda not as suicides.

If everyone knows that Hamas killed the festival goers why would you have the subtitle “So who killed the civilians at the Festival?”

If we all know the answer is Hamas then there’s no need for that title. It implies that there is a question mark over it.

A better title would have been “Israeli helicopter may have hit some revellers whilst firing at terrorists”.

They have juxtaposed “some” hit against the total of 364 “murdered”. That does not seem un measured.

Everyone knows Hamas killed the festival goers. But this is suggesting that not all were murdered by Hamas.

I’m focussing on the tweet because you posted the tweet.

I’ve seen another poster has found the full Hebrew Haaretz article. The English version has to be paid for (except for the first paragraph).

@ScrollingLeaves

Do you not find this choice of quote very telling?

So who killed the civilians at the Festival?

“According to a police source, the investigation also indicates that an IDF combat helicopter that arrived to the scene and fired at terrorists there apparently also hit some festival participants. According to police, 364 people were murdered at the festival.”

They have a section on “who killed the civilians?” and have only chosen the bit about the fact that an Israeli helicopter “apparently also hit” some civilians… but nothing on who actually murdered the vast majority of the 364 victims.

If you search on twitter haaretz nova Israel many will appear. There are links to the newspapers link. It’s up to you if you want to focus on a tweet or on the news

The little antisemitic garnish of #ZionistCensorship (Jews control the media trope) on that tweet would seem even more unnecessary as it refers to an Israeli newspaper that’s critical of the Israeli government reporting on an Israeli investigation. Possibly calls the veracity of the tweet into question.

“until now for some reason it’s been denied that idf had killing innocent people on 7-10 by mistake and more investigations are pointing at this that it’s quits likely it had happened , and even a newspaper from Israel is now suggesting it”

Been denied by whom? I don’t think the Israeli government or IDF have ever claimed that no deaths were caused by friendly fire on 7th October. Why would someone accuse the Israeli government of lying to a degree that no other government they have known ever has because some people on the internet denied that they’d done something even though the government themselves never made such a denial?

Did Hamas have advanced knowledge of the Nova Music Festival?

Haaretz reports,

“The growing assessment in Israel’s security establishment is that Hamas terrorists (fighters) who committed the (alleged) October 7 massacre didn’t have advance knowledge about the Nova music festival held next to Kibbutz Re’im, and decided to target the party spontaneously.

“The assessment is based on terrorist interrogations and the police’s investigation of the incident, among other things, which reveal that the terrorists intended to infiltrate Re’im and other kibbutzim near the Gaza border.”

So who killed the civilians at the Festival?

“According to a police source, the investigation also indicates that an IDF combat helicopter that arrived to the scene and fired at terrorists there apparently also hit some festival participants. According to police, 364 people were murdered at the festival.”

But how did a well-planned operation like the one carried out by Hamas not know about a major music festival taking place on the same day?Haaretz answers,

“According to police sources, the party was originally planned for Thursday and Friday, with an extra day on Saturday added only on Tuesday of that week, at the organizers’ request. The last-minute change strengthens the assessment that Hamas hadn’t known of the event.”

This is quoted from the Israeli newspaper Haaretz but I read it within another newspaper “The Palestinian Chronical”.

Here is a link to the newspaper Haaretz itself which is the source for this, and you can see the first paragraph - but no more as it is subscription only.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-18/ty-article/.premium/israeli-security-establishment-hamas-likely-didnt-have-prior-knowledge-of-nova-festival/0000018b-e2ee-d168-a3ef-f7fe8ca20000

Al Jazeera is also reporting this.
News|
Israel-Palestine conflict
“Hamas had not planned to attack music festival, Israeli report saysFirst police investigation of Supernova festival also found Israeli forces responsible for some deaths
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/18/hamas-had-not-planned-to-attack-israel-music-festival-israeli-report-says

Regarding Israel killing by mistake some people, I raised this as well after reading it somewhere else a well. I received loads of abuse after posting it in MN. At no point I was saying idf had targeted innocent people , in fact I was mentioning that it was probably a mistake. Seems like a week after it can be confirmed that some in the festival were killed by mistake by idf.

I read it in this way “until now for some reason it’s been denied that idf had killing innocent people on 7-10 by mistake and more investigations are pointing at this that it’s quits likely it had happened , and even a newspaper from Israel is now suggesting it”

The tweet says “have you ever seen a country that lies as much as Israel?” and is designed to make people think that the investigation found that Israel was responsible for the deaths at the festival rather than that their helicopters might have accidentally “also hit some revellers whilst firing at the terrorists”.

The tweet also says “Hamas didn’t know about the festival” when what the article says is that they didn’t know about it until 7th October when the festival was likely seen by drones or from parachutes.

It is deliberately framed to suggest that Hamas were not responsible for the atrocities at the festival. Obviously, I’m glad that you didn’t read it that way but I think that’s how many people would.

The Tweet doesn’t say neither anything about rape and torture

I’ve found the original source. It’s in Hebrew so you’d need to translate it.

https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2023-11-18/ty-article/0000018b-e1a5-d168-a3ef-f5ff4d070000

I’ve translated part of it myself .

If you look at the actual twitter account, he says that the helicopter killed most of the civillians at the festival. Which is not what the article says.

At no point the tweet is Implaying that “it wasn’t Hamas that carried out the mass rape, torture and murder at the festival”

maybe read again what it actually says

It’s interesting how many misinformation tweets quote Haaretz wildly out of context or otherwise misrepresent their articles. I wonder if there’s a reason why that particular newspaper keeps cropping up. It can’t just be the paywall, as most papers are behind a paywall nowadays.

Have you read it after paying ? As said it’s behind a paywall

this is what I can find (it’s a source from Palestine citing the newspaper so I know you’re going to discard it directly)

Did Hamas have advanced knowledge of the Nova Music Festival?Haaretz reports,
“The growing assessment in Israel’s security establishment is that Hamas terrorists (fighters) who committed the (alleged) October 7 massacre didn’t have advance knowledge about the Nova music festival held next to Kibbutz Re’im, and decided to target the party spontaneously.
“The assessment is based on terrorist interrogations and the police’s investigation of the incident, among other things, which reveal that the terrorists intended to infiltrate Re’im and other kibbutzim near the Gaza border.”
So who killed the civilians at the Festival?“According to a police source, the investigation also indicates that an IDF combat helicopter that arrived to the scene and fired at terrorists there apparently also hit some festival participants. According to police, 364 people were murdered at the festival.”

Oh dear.