After this there will be silence

👏 👏 👏 100% this. There is no evidence for tunnel exits and entrances underneath the hospitals. Most entrances are in back street at the back of tiny shops and lock ups.

You know for a fact that items have been smuggled in since the 7th October? Where is the evidence? And how do you smuggle in enough food to keep 2.2bil people fed for months, I wonder?

I didn’t say that it was a ceasefire deal that Netanyahu wanted to accept, but I’m sure that if you had hostage family in Gaza who are currently being bombed and starved by their own government, that you might want a ceasefire if there is “some” chance that they would be released. The fact still remains that it was rejected.

Netanyahu doesn’t want to accept any deal because there billions of dollars are in Gaza:

https://unctad.org/news/unrealized-potential-palestinian-oil-and-gas-reserves

This article goes into it in a lot of detail:
https://www.planetcritical.com/p/everybody-wants-gazas-gas

“But while bombs rain down, business continues as usual, with Israel granting 12 licences to six companies to explore for natural gas off the country's Mediterranean coast on October 30th. This is the latest venture to exploit one of several gas fields discovered on the Mediterranean coast over recent decades, aiming to solve Israel’s energy dependency and, crucially, Europe’s supplies.

The total oil and gas reserves were valued at a staggering $524 billion in 2019. But Israel does not have sole legal entitlement to the $524 billion, according to a UN reportpublished in the same year. Not only is some of the $524 billion sourced from within the Occupied Territory of Palestine, much of the rest sits outside national borders in the deep sea, and thus should be shared with all relevant parties. The report questions the national right to these resources given they took millions of years to form—and that Palestinians occupied the whole territory until Israel’s recent formal creation.
….

Gas in Gaza
In 1999, BG Group (BGG) discovered a large gas field between 17 and 21 nautical miles off the coast of Gaza. According to the Oslo II accords, the Palestine National Authority has maritime jurisdiction up to 20 nautical miles off of Gaza’s coast. In November 1999, the PNA signed a 25-year contract for gas exploration with BGG.
The reserves were estimated at 1 trillion cubic feet and would meet Palestine’s demands and allow for exports. Ehud Barak, Israel’s Prime Minister at the time, approved authorisation for BGG to drill the first well in July 2000. They struck gas gold. Palestine and Israel began to negotiate and the deal was seen to benefit both Israeli demand and Palestinian supply.

However, a change in Israeli leadership soured the deal, with Ariel Sharon’s government allegedly driving the rejection of a supply deal between the Palestinian gas field and the state-owned Israel Electric Corporation. In May 2002, the UK’s then-PM, Tony Blair, got involved and Sharon agreed to negotiate an agreement for the annual supply of 0.05 trillion cubic feet of Palestinian gas for a period of 10 to 15 years.

However, he changed his mind in 2003 stating that the funds could be used to support terrorism.

Ehud Olmert’s government, spurred on by the new PM, agreed to reopen negotiations with BGG in April 2007. Starting 2009, Israel would purchase 0.05 trillion cubic feet of Palestinian gas for $4 billion annually, creating a good atmosphere for peace, it was argued.

However, the 2007 Battle of Gaza in which Hamas took control of the strip changed the deal once more, with Hamas looking to increase the original 10% Palestinian share in the BGG deal. An Israeli team of of negotiators was set up by the Government of Israel to formulate a deal with BGG, bypassing both the Palestinian government and PNA, effectively nullifying the contract signed in 1999 between BGG and PNA. However, in December 2007, BGG withdrew from negotiations with the Israeli government.

In June 2008, the Israeli government recontacted BGG to urgently renegotiate the deal. The UN report states: “The decision to speed up negotiations with BGG coincided, chronologically, with the planning of an Israeli military operation in Gaza, whereby it would appear that the Government of Israel wished to reach an agreement with BGG prior to the military operation, which was already in an advanced planning stage.”

Israel’s invasion of Gaza in December 2008 brought the Palestinian gas fields under Israeli control—without regard for international law. BGG has been dealing with the Israeli government ever since. The UN estimates billions of dollars in loss for the Palestinian people.”

———

Re: Lifschitz, it seems like those who are pro-Israeli government seem to believe her account as and when it suits them. Sometimes she’s made up how kind they were because she’s been fed a script, and other times she’s bang on the truth. Either way, if there are a couple of doctors tending to hostages then this still isn’t proof that the doctors know where the hostages are.

It’s not hard to transport doctors who are either blindfolded or transported in other ways where they cannot see the route. I’m not an expert in war strategy, but I doubt the location of the hostages is something Hamas would want known by anyone other than their highest in command and most trusted operatives. This would be an extremely basic precaution, as I’m sure there are a lot of Mossad in Gaza.

@Stomacharmeleon I did not say “poor thick Hamas”.
It should have been clear from my post I was saying that Israel has more access than Hamas to MILITARY intelligence.
As for raw human intelligence, I don’t believe in inferior or superior nations / races / groups.

@HiggleDyPigGeldy you mean poor thick Hamas...
Have you read about yahya sinwar... taught himself fluent Hebrew whilst in prison for murder.... got a gazan to bury his brother alive as he thought he was a collaborator. Killed another commander for suspected 'homosexual activity'

I think he might be offended by your stupid Hamas... they don't know better.

And honestly, those here saying Hamas can start their own ceasefire - what utter nonsense.
They have asked for a ceasefire but civilians will only benefit from that if Israel is on board.
Civilians are being killed by the Israeli army bombing civilians and civilian infrastructure, not by Hamas. (However objectionable I find Hamas, we also need to call a cat a cat now - Israel’s government is no better)

All the pro war people on this thread are essentially trying to gaslight the world by saying it’s Hamas’s fault Gazans are being bombed by Israel.

I am 100% pro Israel bringing Hamas fighters to justice, but that is NOT the same as killing tens of thousands of civilians.

If you are an Israeli politician calling the shots today, if you are an Israeli commander giving the orders, if you are an Israeli reservist signing up to go kill babies in “defense” of your people… you are responsible for deep evil. Similar to the October 7th perpetrators but in many ways worse as you are doing it from a position of way more privilege and education than the Hamas terrorists who have little access to education, global networks, diplomatic tools, precision military technology, intelligence etc. You, and all those egging on the violence, are worse because you have access to so much resource that could enable you to do things differently if you actually thought Gazan lives mattered.

They could stop firing rockets and stop using the hospital as a post to shoot at soldiers.... you know if they really cared about the babies.

Why do you keep repeating this propaganda uncritically? The Israeli Government comes out with this absolute bollocks every time they make war on Gaza and in 95% of cases, investigations show that they have zero truth.

When they bombed and dropped white phosphorus on UN shelters in one of their recent wars, they were adamant that Hamas were using it as a firing post.

Then backed down and said they were just hiding there, then that they were nearby, then that actually, no Hamas were anywhere near and shrugged.

It's what they do, like before, during and after the fact. They said that they would be attacking the hospitals before they began.

@HaveALaff since 1988?

@notsoready4school 'I have seen no evidence of that' do you live there?
Hamas are still firing rockets into Israel and fighting hand to hand (in a hospital)
Imagine if they just laid down arms or stopped firing rockets (that have to come from somewhere)

I am talking about what Hamas could do now.....like handing back the hostages. All of them. Which they haven't.

dumpkin · Yesterday 17:17
**
@OuiOuiKitty do you have any suggestions on how to stop it?”

The US could stop the onslaught on Gaza right now by suspending funding until it ceased.

Well said @HoldOnMiGenna

Exactly this. Jews, Christians and Muslims were living together in harmony in Palestine. Palestinians have the track record for maintaining harmony.

I stand by the fact if it's not easy to 'snuggle' or smuggle things in we know for a fact weapons and luxury items have gone in.... Hamas are picking priorities.

The article you quoted from the guardian says that Bibi said no... a source said.... because it was for 'some' hostages. I Don't think he has ever made a secret of the fact that he wants them all out. It makes things very difficult when you start picking and choosing....the elderly? Babies? Children under 5?

The hostages weren't brought to hospitals. Lifshitz said 'that each group had their own doctor and paramedic who administered medication' Not a 'hop, skip and jump' as that was what happened. She was there (have provided the article in case you accuse me of propaganda). The doctors were complicit. In the tunnels with the captives.

And I'll repeat, Israel is not targeting civilians. They are targeting the terrorists who are intentionally hiding amongst their own civilians.

gosh don’t you get tired of repeating these lies?

And are you justifying all these killings because you believe all these children will grow up to hate and kill non Muslims?

Something is terribly wrong with you if you see nothing wrong with all these deaths , and please don’t say but hamas , it’s not the issue here , it’s you, criminalising and dehumanising civilians to justify the actions of the Israeli government .

Do you even realise that Christians have been living there for for centuries along with Muslims?

do you realise the number of Non Muslims that have lived and worked there for many years with absolutely nothing to say but good things about the Gazans?

@untitledmum also wrote:

”The point is that in war innocent people die. Its a very sad reality.”

This is something that we’ve seen written over and over again on this thread.

The fact that Israel is a signatory to the Geneva Convention but is currently using it as IDF toilet paper means absolutely nothing to these people.

Their thinking is informed by extremist ideology. It is full of hatred.

They are trying to get you to look the other way so that they can carry out genocide in peace.

Just today, Israel is offering assistance to the Shifra hospital today to help it transport the babies in incubators. If the Israeli army was intent on genocide and targeting civilians this would not be happening.

Is this serious? A decent army wouldn't cut off power, destroy solar panels and generators for hospitals. A decent army wouldn't deny hospitals fuel for generators. A decent army would deny aid entry so that people are having to ha e amputations on the floor with no anaesthesia. A decent army wouldn't have snipers shooting nicu nurses as they do their job. A decent army wouldn't target ambulances and medical centres. Delicate babies shouldn't need to be moved, they should be safe in their incubators with their parents at their side and nurses able to freely move around and tend to them. They shouldn't be wrapped in blankets on a hospital floor with terrified staff afraid to move on case they get shot. If Israel do move them it will be for nothing but optics because babies dying in incubators makes them look as bad as they are.

All this death is awful.
It's why I will never understand why Hamas thought it was a valid idea to send so many of the people who it governs to certain death.
It's also why I do not understand why straight after Hamas started this war, Palestinian supporters equated the terror attack on October 7th with Palestinian freedom and why so many of them on peace marches still equate a war in which so many Palestinians are dying with Palestinian freedom
Either the concern is that Palestinians are dying in too high numbers in a war started by Hamas and they would like Israel (alone) to put down arms, or that war is a valid step for Hamas to take in enabling Palestinian freedom.
But it cannot be both things, surely? I just don't understand the multitude of "freedom for Palestine" banners and badges in the middle of a war started by Palestinian representatives on a peace march , ,the premise of which is that too many Palestinians are dying?
And still no insistence on Hamas setting realistic terms for a ceasefire, considering their aim of destroying Israel and saying that Palestinian deaths are an "expectation" in their aim...in a war that they started and which they are losing.
It's like people need to regard Hamas and Gazans as both the winners and losers of this conflict, thus they espouse totally opposite narratives in order to justify Israel being the Devil with the total manipulation of Hamas being ignored...and why, unless these people actually do support the actions and aims of Hamas, even as Hamas has sent so many Gazans to certain death.
If peace is really wanted by the protestors, it's full time now that they recognise that the onus has to be on the faction which started this war which it is losing to stop acting as if they are holding the handle, when, in fact, it is holding the blade.
Hamas and Palestinian supporters cannot not be "poor us" without being humble enough to demand Hamas put down arms first and unconditionally....considering that the death toll to Gazans is allegedly the main concern in a war that Hamas started.
One cannot be making demands of the side that didn't break the ceasefire , built a defence system to protect its people in case of missiles being sent to its nation , whilst the other side seemingly ate the interminable amount of money that it has stolen from its people leaving them naked and the literal buffers.
In Jamaican parlance , I see a whole heap of " panya machete" talk from both Hamas and the majority of vocal Palestinian supporters.
Their mouths cut two sides. And they do the dying Gazans absolutely no favours.
It is Hamas that needs to surrender unconditionally.
Then we can all sit back, pro Israel, pro Hamas, really Pro Palestinian, combination of pro Hamas and Pro Palestinian, neutral or doesn't pretend to give a toss and see what move Israel makes.
Or does the need to see Israel as "murderers of babies" come above the possibility of peace that would mean rendering Hamas impotent ( for now) without more Gazans dying as collateral damage in this war?
I cannot think of another war where it has been seen that the side defending itself has to stop doing so because the side that started the war is losing, yet doesn't surrender.
That doesn't make me a Palestinian hater.
It just makes me wonder why so many vocal Palestinian supporters hate Gazans so much to the point of not demanding that Hamas get a bit of " act right" about them and surrender unconditionally. Hamas cannot have the luxury of starting shit, not being able to finish shit, but want to control the terms of a peace where it is Israel as the defending entity that makes the concessions?
Hamas and vocal Palestinian supporters have got the most front that I've seen in a long time.
Shameless shit ( in my Clay Davis voice).

If your great grandad was a Nazi-supporter living in Dresden, that explains a lot.

The point is that in war innocent people die. Its a very sad reality.
The vital moral difference is, who is the army targeting? A decent army will target the enemy, an evil army will target civilians. Just today, Israel is offering assistance to the Shifra hospital today to help it transport the babies in incubators. If the Israeli army was intent on genocide and targeting civilians this would not be happening.

You can’t seriously believe that Palestinians, who have been an agricultural people for millennia, all of a sudden forgot how to feed themselves and cultivate the land?

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/2018-07-09/ty-article/.premium/farm-warfare-how-israel-uses-chemicals-to-kill-crops-in-gaza/0000017f-e01e-d804-ad7f-f1fef7830000

https://gisha.org/en/hundreds-of-dunams-of-crops-in-gaza-destroyed-by-aerial-herbicide-spraying-conducted-by-israel/

There is unending evidence about all the ways that Israel crushes the food supply in Gaza. Watch the documentary ‘Born in Gaza’ on Netflix.

How easy do you think it is to snuggle when the entire area is under unbelievably intense military surveillance and bombardment?

Netanyahu rejecting Hamas ceasefire deal:

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/09/netanyahu-rejected-ceasefire-for-hostages-deal-in-gaza-sources-say

Just because hostages are being brought to hospitals, that does not mean that doctors are somehow privy to their whereabouts. What a hop, skip and a jump to assume that.

“They could stop firing rockets and stop using the hospital as a post to shoot at soldiers.... you know if they really cared about the babies. They don't though which is why they need to go.”

Who is saying that they like Hamas and that they should stay?! The fact remains that the actions of the IDF are despicable!

The whole point of drawing up the international laws that we have was “Never Again” - which meant never again for everyone!

The willingness of people to justify atrocities is appalling.

Israel has, at least since 2007, controlled the movement of goods to Gaza, in order " to make sure that no weapons are smuggled in. It is the same in the West Bank with the added "bonus" of destroying the Palestinian watermelons' production as Israel wants to remain their biggest exporter.
The Palestinians also have to ask the Israelis' permission before digging a well and I could go on.

All staff in the hospital have always known that hamas have their headquarters below the hospital
please do the faintest bit of research before spewing things you no nothing about ,
the hospital was built in three stages , first by the British , then Egyptians then Israelis in the 80s,
lots of Foreign Doctors like Mads Gilbert Worked there for years and know the place very well and said they’ve never seen anything suspicious , Sara Roy a professor at Harvard who lived in Gaza and Isreal wrote many thesis and Books about Gaza says it’s highly improbable,
yet the Israeli Army who didn’t see two Hamas Paragliding into Israel are all of sudden certain Hamas are hiding inside the hospital ?

And if they indeed had a tip off that members are within the vicinity , the tunnels are 500km long , and are probably changing locations very often . do you think after heavy fighting they’d still be in there ?

@notsoready4school show me the evidence Hamas said it would down tools and ceasefire?

My point about the tunnels is that they have the capacity to smuggle through whatever they like.... they chose not to smuggle through the food and goods their civilians need and them blame Israel. What is the blame not at Hamas' door? If you rely on another state to feed and look after you would you then massacre their children?

They could stop firing rockets and stop using the hospital as a post to shoot at soldiers.... you know if they really cared about the babies. They don't though which is why they need to go.

The situation with Dresden etc was very different as we weren't watching it in real time. I believe people would have been horrified if they had cameras everywhere and people sending back a regular torrent of info but they didn't. It's easier to disassociate yourself then as it's been from most wars and conflicts except maybe Ukraine.

The hospital situation I imagine (if it's there and it sounds like I want it to be there but I have to be honest if it's Not it will be a tipping point for me) that most doctors are somewhat too preoccupied to know what's going on underneath it. Under such a chaotic reality it would be easy not to know or not want to know. They are there to preserve life.

I do think some members of the medical profession know where the hostages are though even due to some having injuries/ some needing medical assistance. Also the released hostage said she saw doctors.