People who don't support ceasefire

Does defending Israel mean thousands of innocent children are killed and 11,000 people are massacred and even more maimed and injured and entire neighbourhoods bombed and razed to the ground ? If this is Israel’s definition of self-defence then no, it doesn’t have the right to defend itself.

it’s not very tricky at all, tbh. It’s a clear distinction between life and death if innocent civilians.

@Inauthentic here is a screenshot of one of my previous posts on this thread. But you go ahead and keep thinking I support Netanyahu 👍🏻

So despite me saying repeatedly on multiple occasions over various threads on here that I don't support Netanyahu, you assume I support him? That's an interesting strategy on your part.

Do you conduct a lot of discussions like this or just the ones you don't seem to know anything about?

Do you support Hamas?

*and quite possibly

@SomeCatFromJapan all I am saying is that although I expected Israel to fight back there has been some serious mistakes made which could have prevented many civilian deaths
And are still being made
Israel point blank refuse to accept this or take any accountability
This arrogance will ultimately lead to more deaths but quite possibly a very isolated Israel after the war with many many more enemies
Again if Netanyahu wasn't in power and somebody with more common sense then we may not be seeing what we are today

Many still died
It was also cruel psychologically to do it the day after (again going back to something has seriously gone wrong)
Because that meant that many of those who were still in the North didn't move thinking it was a trap which inevitably led to more deaths in the North
And I know you can say oh well Hamas also told them not to move but what did you expect the people to believe when they saw the safe zones their friends and family were instructed to go to being bombed

It’s a really good point: Israel must meet the standards of the Geneva Convention, but those were based on the assumption that any state would take some measures to protect its citizens from harm. In the sense that Hamas actively put their citizens in harms way, this war is not comparable to others.

They told them to move to the south where bombing is still happening
You know that

Less intensity of airstrikes and no ground fighting in the south.

Regarding the Guardian article, I don't know what the answer is. If the civilians are moved away from the conflict, it's ethnic cleansing. If they are left in situ in the heart of the fighting, it's genocide.

I appreciate that many would be of the view that Israel shouldn't be there fighting in the first place, but I don't see an alternative at this point to dealing with the Hamas threat.

Well yes you are right again to some extent, we won't know the full horrors of the war until the dust has settled.
BBC Verify have a whole piece on it
How the safe zones in the south were bombed the day after people were instructed to move there
War is messy and I acknowledge that
But as many are finally saying, with this many casualties in such a short space of time... something is clearly going wrong

Biden knows this which is why he is furiously back tracking
You know that now the US have done a total U Turn from Hamas are inflating the figures of deaths to actually... we think the figures might even be higher than Hamas is saying
There is some really sick stuff going on in the background

Israel has released pictures a Hamas rocket site purposely placed next to a desalination plant in Gaza.

Hamas’s responsibility for dead, injured, starving and thirsty Palestinians seems to be overlooked by the ‘pro-Palestine’ protestors - or ‘antisemites’ as many of them should properly be referred to.

@SomeCatFromJapan and in regards to ethnic cleansing and forced displacement I think this article does a better job at explaining the causes of concerns than I could articulate

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/16/israel-gaza-mass-evacuation-ethnic-cleansing

WhileMyDishwasherGentlyWeeps
Are those who support a ceasefire racist? Do they want to stop Israel defending itself? Do they want the Jewish homeland, and Jews, to be easier targets for racist terrorist maniacs?

Tricky stuff, OP, tricky stuff.

MrsTerryPratchett
Some of those who support a ceasefire probably are racist.

This emotive, one-sided, ad hominem stuff is getting wearing.

Adults need to stop soundbite, divisive 'goodies and baddies' shit and work out a difficult solution. Politics has become more and more polarised and divisive. Not just on this issue.

It's CLEAR that the attacks on 7th October were brutal and indefensible but have antecedents. It's CLEAR that the current attacks on Gaza are brutal and indefensible but have antecedents. Understanding the antecedents is adult and is NOT the same as excusing the actions.

People who hate Jews and people who hate Muslims (and many people who hate both) are fanning the flames and laughing.

A ceasefire is right because thousands of children aren't 'collateral'. But with the right wing psychos on one 'side' and Hamas and their backers on the other, the rest of the world needs to support neither of them with anything other than humanitarian aid and support for cooperation and democratic process. The only 'side' anyone should be on is peace, children, non-combatants and equity.

Brilliantly put. Am sick of sound bites and harassment.

I think only history will tell what was indiscriminate and what was targeted based on information we have no access to.

You can bet your sweet bippy that Hamas will infiltrate, and control as far as they can, escape routes and safe spaces.

They told them to move to the south where bombing is still happening
You know that

@Inauthentic
"You have to believe that Palestinian people are somehow lees valuable or complicit and therefore deserve collective punishment."

No, we don't have to believe that. I don't believe Palestinians are worth less than anyone else. I don't think they're all complicit.

I do think some of them go to school right next to weapon factories, thanks to Hamas. I think some of them live in an apartment right above a terrorist hub, thanks to Hamas. I think some of them attend scouts which also doubles up as a rocket launching pad, thanks to Hamas. That doesn't mean I think these people have chosen this life for themselves. It means I think Hamas has literally sacrificed these people for their version of the greater good, ie the destruction of Israel and death to all Jews. It's all sorts of fucked up.

It's an incredibly difficult war to fight when you care more about the lives your enemy is meant to protect than they do. I realise Netanyahu personally doesn't care for anyone but himself, but other Israelis do. They really do. That includes soldiers. As you know, everyone becomes a soldier in Israel, no matter their political beliefs. So a lot of them care about Palestinians, just like they did before they became soldiers.

When we've had vigils in honour of the dead since the 7th of October, it has been for all the dead. Not just the Israeli ones. The prayers have been for all the innocent lives that have been lost. For all the injured. For all those now without a family or a home to return to, on both sides. All lives matter equally. Please stop telling me that I clearly think otherwise. I don't.

Totally indiscriminate bombing, so none or very very little measures taken to ensure civilians are not hit

I would disagree with this. The IDF did implement a humanitarian corridor once on the ground in Gaza but there were threads on here a couple of days ago saying that was ethnic cleansing.
There is also confirmed evidence of the IDF phoning civilians in advance to get them to evacuate areas they are planning to strike.

As a very basic simple answer if we were to focus solely on the war and nothing else, although you are correct that it would be impossible to separate them fully.
And that everyone did expect some civilian casualties, it's a war ofcourse there would have been but there are two major issues

1. Obstructing and continuing to obstruct life saving aid
2. Totally indiscriminate bombing, so none or very very little measures taken to ensure civilians are not hit

Now we can argue this back and forth but I think at the absolute minimum this can be agreed on
You can even see that the US are slowly starting to acknowledge this too. And coming from Israels greatest of most powerful ally is really not a good sign.
Netanyahu is clearly being reckless. He knows his days are numbered and seems like he is so filled with anger and revenge he is beyond the point of caring
I do think that if Israel had a better government the outcome to this war would be different to what we are seeing now

It’s unfair to insist on separating Hamas from “ordinary Gazans” yet also keep talking about Israel as a single, stupid, malevolent entity.

Thanks to social media, we can see the impact of war and naturally react with “This is horrible – it must stop.”

The question is: How to stop it? Negotiate with a terrorist group that plans more 7 Oct attacks, and whose ultimate goal is global expansion? Where will that lead? And I’m not just thinking about the safety of Israel. Hamas are as dangerous to the Gazan people as a metastatic cancer, and as deeply embedded (literally and metaphorically).

In my dreams, I single-handedly stop the war by gently persuading Gazans to herd Hamas and their supporters into a large concrete bunker, and then I chuck in about 90 million grenades and shut the door, and we all have a street party to celebrate the safe and happy world we all share with them gone. I only wish it were that simple…!

And ofcourse they have also asked for Hamas aswell. But that's more clear, hostage taking and killing civilians. Nobody can argue with that it's a clear cut crime.

But many seems to think Israel is either right, or its a 'grey' area
When there are some actions that Israel have carried out that are also clear cut wrong

What I posted was in regards to the ICC
They are different to the UN

Jewish background means original roots of Israel

It doesn’t inevitably, unless you’re talking about millennia ago. Equating all Jews with the state of Israel is racist. But I agree that Judaism is obviously not just a religion.

The UN are great in many ways but they are clearly not impartial on this.