People who don't support ceasefire

So, the IDF now says they shot those people, not Hamas?

@Itllbefine6 yes there was a whole video circulating on this which showed a road leading to the North with dead bodies all along it which had clearly been shot, Yesterday the IDF were asked about this and they confirmed it was them but they were shooting Hamas. I believe some of them need to get their eyes tested unless they believe the children that they shot were Hamas too

According to Douglas Murray (not an unbiased source, admittedly), some of the Gazans attempting to flee were slaughtered by Hamas as punishment for trying to leave, and not by Israel's bombing, as was originally reported.

😂

I think this point about Hamas cannot be stated enough. The second in command in in interview basically said Hamas had no responsibility for Gazans as 75% of them are refugees so they are Unwra and Israels problem. Utterly callous, they will not lift a finger to help Gazans in any way.

Starmer’s wife being Jewish has a lot to do with his stance, anyone who thinks otherwise is naive.

@keffie12 sorry for confusion - I've had one of those days, and a lot of discussions about this.
Someone "expected" me to support my husband's views after 7/10 BECAUSE he's Jewish... almost as if I didn't have my own views, which are somewhat different from his

I didn't say that. I made the comment that KS wife is Jewish, so it's a difficult one for KS.

Someone else asked me what KS's wife religion got to do with it: I said his wife is Jewish and shared the link of proof.

The person who replied to me thought KS wife was Hindu.

I think she was getting mixed up with Sunak wife whose Jewish.

Also, question - how is Palestine allowed to defend itself? I'm really confused what the answer to this is supposed to be. Clearly the actions of Hamas are beyond horrific and cannot be accepted as legitimate self-defence. So what is the Palestinian self-defence route? They have seen children, women, elderly, killed regularly by the IDF for years but have no legitimate way of responding.

Hamas are the ruling party of Gaza so if you're talking about self-defense, you're basically talking about Hamas. And they are fighting back - they have been firing a barrage of rockets into Israel since the 7th of October, they use RPGs and there is now actual boots on the ground conflict in Gaza as the IDF advance.

It is NOT in the best interests of Gazans. Hamas can't win directly against Israel so all this does is prolong the conflict and the civilian deaths.

As @keffie12 said "what does KS wifes religion have to do with anything"
My DH is Jewish - we've had some very heated discussions in the last month - we agree on very little in this situation& it's caused us great conflict

Does anyone seriously believe that the attacks in Gaza are in any way helping to protect the Jewish homeland? Every airstrike on civilians is probably created dozens of new Hamas recruits. The only way to make Israel a more difficult target for terrorists is to engage in a peace process.

Also, question - how is Palestine allowed to defend itself? I'm really confused what the answer to this is supposed to be. Clearly the actions of Hamas are beyond horrific and cannot be accepted as legitimate self-defence. So what is the Palestinian self-defence route? They have seen children, women, elderly, killed regularly by the IDF for years but have no legitimate way of responding.

Agreed

I didn't say that they weren't seeking to restrict civilian casualties at all, I said I strongly doubted they were making their best effort to do so. Evidence being the growing alarm about their methods in the international community.

There is concrete evidence of these millions of flyers, text messages and voice messages employed by the IDF. There is also concrete evidence of Hamas using tunnels under children's beds and hospitals, and deliberately preventing civilians from fleeing.

Where is your evidence that the IDF is not seeking to restrict civilian casualties, please?

The UN and Amnesty have a long, long history of bias against Israel. I haven't researched the others.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/43554877

https://www.ajc.org/news/amnestys-outrageous-lie-its-big-problem-with-jews-and-the-truth-about-israel

I strongly doubt that the IDF is doing its best to restrict civilian casualties. Token gestures perhaps, for the world stage.

At the same time, Hamas appears to be doing its best to maximise them.

The whole situation is just horrendous.

Casualty figures are supplied only by the Hamas-controlled Gaza Health Ministry, which makes no distinction between terrorists and civilians.
The IDF is also operating within the laws of armed conflict, doing its best to minimise civilian casualties, including by warning people to leave areas it is about to attack. Since this war began, it has dropped 1.5 million flyers, sent six million voice messages, 4 million text messages – and made phone calls on top of all that. Despite these efforts, many civilians have died in Gaza. This is tragic, but unavoidable when Hamas hides within civilian populations, often forcing them to remain in areas that are to be attacked.
(from a Telegraph article published today)

Repeating the same punitive actions over and over and expecting a different result is one definition of stupid
That must be why Hamas, having spent years bombing Israel with missiles that backfired or were intercepted, decided to take things up a level or two...

I haven’t rtft but the major issue is how to get rid of Hamas

Most agree that should be achieved, if there is a ceasefire there hasn’t been a suggestion on how

And that is not what I said, is it?

I don't think you can every eliminate terrorists by force. I don't think BOMBING people who are not Hamas reduces the number of Hamas - it grows them. Killing Israelis also grows the fight - assuming you are in the UK if someone attacks the UK, will you be arguing peace? Most of the UK are still hating a young woman groomed by terrorists who is arguably no threat to anyone.

You can stop bombing and not ceasefire. Bombs are not the only weapons. Equally, if Hamas are intent on Jihad and think their cause is so great, stop hiding behind civilians and get on the front line.

Anyone - on either side - seeking to die for their cause... not my first option, but have at it.

I am not naive. I have been in war. I have seen what it does. IRL. I'm not discussing something from my comfy sofa that I've never experienced. Unlike most people. There are no winners in war. There are no niceties either.

Hamas are not the Palestinian people. The Israeli government are not Jewish people. And there are no simple or easy answers. Cowards hide behind civilians. They always have.

the suicidal line suggests you are reactionary not thinking clearly

You needed to get rid of Hamas - yes - you have had that problem for decades and over that time many more Palestinians have been killed than Israelis and the problem has got worse - why ?

Possibly because so many Palestinians have been killed , so many Palestinians have lost their homes ... the punitive method over the decades has made the situation ever worse and strengthened not weakened Hamas

Repeating the same punitive actions over and over and expecting a different result is one definition of stupid