Number of Palestinians killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza over 10,000 😡

I wrote a whole post on this elsewhere
Il see if I can find it and copy and paste to save writing it out again

Have you seen what Netanyahu said today?
It's thinly disguised as a form of occupation of Gaza again
That's currently Israels plan

Separately, and I am posting it in a different post, because I think it is a different issue, what should Israel do after Hamas have been destroyed?

Personally I want a lasting peace based on a two state solution. This should be imposed on both sides by the international community. Israel needs to withdraw from the settlements in the occupied territories in return for the Palestinians being monitored and regulated by the UN, meaning no terrorism and no electing terrorist organisations.

I think that the international community, and Israel too, should contribute money to make the territories nice places to live. But, again, somehow (and the how bit is really hard) this money has to be used to benefit civilians, not to pay for weapons or kleptocrat’s billionaire lifestyles.

There are two interesting articles in The Times today, both of which I broadly agree with. I will attempt to share them (though share tokens don’t always work well on here.

British Jews should beware illiberal allies

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/073f1a2a-7cdb-11ee-913f-d6ccb3352dd1?shareToken=9450a8d8c5559337ed29ddc4c84bea5f

Israel may destroy Hamas — but then what?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/6470be26-7cc5-11ee-913f-d6ccb3352dd1?shareToken=797df306bcc29a868c068d5e0e4b80a6

And finally, on a more hopeful note, I wonder what is happening to these guys, whom I have always admired:

https://west-eastern-divan.org/founders

No one has really replied (meaningfully) to my previous post.

Do Israel have a right to aggressively target Hamas?

If so, how could they do it better, given Hamas hides amongst civilians?

This is not about 1947 or looking backwards, it is about what they should do now.

very strong words from the UN now

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-chief-says-gaza-becoming-graveyard-children-2023-11-06/

The UN’s secretary general, António Guterres, has warned that “no one is safe” as he reiterated his urgent call for a humanitarian ceasefire.
The situation in Gaza is “more than a humanitarian crisis, it is a crisis of humanity”, Guterres said during a briefing at the UN’s headquarters on Monday.
Israeli ground operations and bombardments are hitting civilians, hospitals, refugee camps, mosques, churches and UN facilities including shelters, he said. The protection of civilians “must be paramount”, he said.
I’m deeply concerned about the clear violations of international humanitarian law that we are witnessing. Let me be clear, no party to an armed conflict is above international humanitarian law.
He said Gaza was “becoming a graveyard for children” with hundreds of boys and girls reportedly killed or injured every day, he said.
More journalists have reportedly been killed over a four-week period than in any conflict in at least three decades. More United Nations aid workers have been killed than in any comparable period in the history of our organisation”

But loads of things Israel don't anything to do with Hamas. Bombing children on the beach? Shooting children hanging out their washing and then lying about it. Killing an autistic man on his way home from school. Stealing land in the West Bank. Preventing people from building proper houses in the West Bank. Raping women. The humiliating way Palestinians are treated in the West Bank. Killing journalists then lying about it. Imprisoning and torturing children. So much that Israel does to Palestinians doesn't actually have anything to with Hamas at all. It's just about control and seeing Palestinians as less than.

Absolutely and I spent years being critical of every one of these events. Israel does need to get its own house in order on those fronts.

I do think Israel has a right to exist though. I suppose I didn't truly believe that Hamas' central goal was the destruction of Israel until I saw what they were prepared to do a month ago.
So I do understand that Israel has to deal with Hamas, but I genuinely couldn't tell you what the best way to do that actually is. The situation seems almost impossible.

I was thinking more of the ideology expressed which equates to the far right, war mongering, racist, pro settler Ministers in the Israeli Govt. Do you deny the similarity?

Perfectly alright, no offense taken and also: genuinely appreciated!

I am angry, too! Currently trying to channel my anger into "reach out to every activist, Israeli, Palestinian, European, American, you have ever known - try to get some sort of joint thing off the ground!"

Question: what do you think the true endgame is here? With talk of Netanyahu being reticent to scale back or accept a ceasefire due to seeing this as being his only way to hold on to political power and avoid incarceration, what is the mission accomplished scenario?

I genuinely don't know is the honest answer.
I find myself thinking it is a pity that it is Netanyahu in charge during what must be one of the gravest crises in the area in recent years, precisely because it is all too easy to call his motivation and integrity into question.

makes so much sense now.
what a joke 🤣

Apologies. I really didn't mean for you to feel forced to reply at all. You were just another poster that I remembered who has spoken about where some of your feelings come from.

I was just feeling angry at the way I constantly feel the need to justify myself, to somehow prove that I'm not hating on Israel for the fun of it. I'm angry that mumsnet constantly leaves personal attacks up when if people were calling others bitches or whatever instead of antisemitic they would take them down apologies again, I didn't mean for you to feel like you had to explain yourself.

But loads of things Israel don't anything to do with Hamas. Bombing children on the beach? Shooting children hanging out their washing and then lying about it. Killing an autistic man on his way home from school. Stealing land in the West Bank. Preventing people from building proper houses in the West Bank. Raping women. The humiliating way Palestinians are treated in the West Bank. Killing journalists then lying about it. Imprisoning and torturing children. So much that Israel does to Palestinians doesn't actually have anything to with Hamas at all. It's just about control and seeing Palestinians as less than.

Question: what do you think the true endgame is here? With talk of Netanyahu being reticent to scale back or accept a ceasefire due to seeing this as being his only way to hold on to political power and avoid incarceration, what is the mission accomplished scenario?

i think part of the difference between this an other atrocities going on currently is the both overt and tacit support of western governments including our own. This rouses a clear “not in our name” response in many of us. Additionally when people ask “what should Israel do?” Surely the first thing if they want to keep a clear moral distance from Hamas is adhere to International laws of engagement? There is abundant evidence from numerous sources they haven’t. And no, Hamas haven’t, but they’re terrorist and not the same as the Palestinian people. And again in response to “what did Hamas expect”? Let’s turn it around. What does Israel think will be the outcome of this? Even if the do crush Hamas what is their plan for working towards a lasting peace.

Prior to invasion? Israel has been invading for a while Palestine but you already know that
same as idf has been raping women and killing innocent children. But you also know that already

I've always been a harsh critic of Israel's actions in the West Bank and what I viewed as their indiscriminate bombing of Gaza.

7 October opened my eyes to the existential threat Israel faces though. I genuinely didn't realise what Hamas was before then. I thought the Israelis were exaggerating.

Point 4, page 7.... I couldn't agree more.

Prior to invasion? Israel has been invading for a while Palestine but you already know that
same as idf has been raping women and killing innocent children. But you also know that already

@OuiOuiKitty I don't think that's everyone's objection to Israel at all. I think many particularly on the left see it as an extension of the US or even of white colonialism.
Also many people who may not be well informed will just view Israel as the aggressor and Gaza as the underdog due to discrepancy in military power.

I saw this today

https://www.transcend.org/tms/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/sf-israel-projects-2009-global-language-dictionary.pdf?fbclid=PAAaY1js19XW6TGrv2WhCBiiktGL9ure5yFgfGASDgwP3go1cqUR9QJK61omcaemmAWP8vFkPk3HPy4kMVXuEEiX53cKJsXE7Q16ZwDudFOMEQd0o72pzlOgJuQbThXCzEQ

An actual guide for what to day ! It sounds exactly like some posters on this subject

They are fucking bombing hostages too . They are in gaza aren't they ? Do you honestly think that they care about hostages at this point ?

You all sound the same ... i wonder if you have a textbook of what to say

I keep hearing WW2 being mentioned and I thought it reminds me more of Germany invading Poland

Poland didn't carry out a terrorist atrocity against Germany prior to invasion.

Seeing as you have tagged me, I sort of feel obliged to respond:

YES, I do feel strongly about it all! In the sense of: "people I love(d) have died, been imprisoned, and ... it is just all really wrong!". Also, in the very personal sense of "I have war trauma - I have had the best therapy imaginable to try and fix it, but: I still have war trauma - over that stupid mistake of falling in love with the wrong man (and: it did not even work out; we are divorced, for entirely non-political reasons)".

But also: if my fucking war trauma has taught me anything - anything at all!!! - it has got to be this: it has GOT TO BE "humans over ideology" always! At any given point!

I will NEVER not demand fairness.

I will also NEVER stand for the slaughter of civilians. And I could not personally care less who their leaders are! I am ... something, anything ... you tell me, because I really do not know who I am anymore at this point! ... I am something in between "humanitarian first", "philosophical anarchosyndicalist with a corporate career first", "friends & family first" ... I am one of those. All of those.

I just cannot stand anyone who advocates for the wholesale dehumanisation of people as they are dying. And I demand the right to take this position without being able to offer any "off the shelf" solution to an issue that existed before I did!

If that makes me a bad person: SO FUCKING BE IT!