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Conflict in the Middle East
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Parkingt111 · 07/11/2023 17:35

@HeidiInTheBigCity that was an excellent and insightful post

Ohlalalalala · 07/11/2023 17:24

HeidiInTheBigCity · 07/11/2023 16:28

Apart from the fact that the cost in human lives is absolutely horrific and utterly unacceptable, Israel´s actions are downright stupid from a long-term, strategic point of view - and not only for Israel!

The more suffering they cause, the more people will hate them! A whole generation of Gazan children, right now, is learning a hands-on lessons that is hard to understand as anything other than "Israel is the devil"! Do you think they will grow up and happily sing along to the Hatikvah? Or is Israel playing a hands-on role in forming the ideology of a new Hamas?

More globally speaking: a whole generation of young people, globally, is growing up and learning the same! They are not getting their news from the BBC but from TikTok, from Twitter, and from Telegram Channels where the unfiltered horror is visible to everyone and anyone. (I am actually deeply worried for them - as well as for adults because secondary trauma is a thing!). They are currently growing up and learning that Israel must be utterly and completely evil.

And minorities, people in the Global South, are watching and learning something else, too: specifically, that Western powers would be more than happy for them to be slaughtered, and that the entirety of the supposed Western value system is nothing but hypocrisy and lies. So ... why not prefer China over the US?! Iran over the UK?

... and I am not saying that all of this is, in fact, true. My own takes are a lot more nuanced than this. But you only have to follow social media to see an alarming rise not only in anti-Israeli but also more general anti-Western sentiment happening live! This will not "just go away" again. Again: secondary trauma exists, and trauma has a way of burning itself into everything we are, believe, and say!

This is, in fact, all very dangerous both for Israel and for the so-called liberal consensus.

... and that is, literally, just mostly the bombing! I have not even touched upon the brutally inhumane medieval siege tactics of cutting people off food and water - that is not even really tactically useful in the short term (but does one hell of a job on the "Israel is evil" propaganda front)!

Finally, while many will not be seeing it like this right now, the current strategy is also just bad for Israeli identity in the long term. Eventually, some sort of consensus will emerge that, yes, this was, in fact just horrifically wrong! Because it is. And because, after the war is over, Western governments will want to return ASAP to the pretense of being in favour of such things such as international law and human rights. So PhD theses will be written, documentaries will be produced , politicians who are no longer in office will be written off as the evil ones who let it happen and the ones still in office will find some sort of an excuse about how some of the facts were not immediately clear and, in hindight, ... it was different then ... whatever! Unless they can just get away with never mentioning it again, of course! Because this will be necessary to keep the system stable! This is precisely what has happened after every single Western-backed atrocity! But this narrative generally needs a scapegoat! And it will have to be Israelis. You see, I work with a lot of Germans, and Germans have somehow, literally, had to shape their national identity around the fact that they committed the holocaust. They have a word for this. They call it "Tätergesellschaft" (perpetrator society). They also have "Vergangenheitsbewältigung", which roughly means "coming to terms with the past". And while I am absolutely not - just to make this crystal clear - in any way, shape or form equating Gaza 2023 with Germany 1941, narratives tend not to care that much about facts. I wish future Israelis a better future than "people whose identity re-shapes to revolve around the fact that their ancestors did the unspeakable"!

That is why! Or, some of the reasons why!

Yes, there are better options, for example:

  1. Ceasefire
  2. Hostage exchange
  3. UN peacekeepers (or some other international force - the point is: Israel cannot
  4. The arrest and prosecution of those responsible (and, yes, that has to include Israelis)
  5. Good faith negotiations for a political settlement

This is not going to happen, mind, and I know it! But it would be far, far, far better in terms of a response - not just for Palestinians, but also Israelis. For us all!

It could happen, but for it to happen, Netanyahu needs to be removed as PM!

EDIT: oh, yikes! I wrote an essay!

Edited

Thanks @HeidiInTheBigCity for your input. Interesting analysis.

OP posts:
Jupitersstorm · 07/11/2023 16:40

Parkingt111 · 07/11/2023 15:17

Ah like how you pointed out yesterday if biden was annoyed or 'seriously annoyed', was that another incorrect fact you wanted to point out?
You will find when you are rude and condescending even if you have a point there will be few people who are willing to engage with you. UN saying they believe Gaza is still under a form of occupation is a fact

And you can stop tagging me as this will be my last response to you

Edited

I was replying to your comment - it's not a private conversation. You are of course, within your rights not to reply to me. I wasn't looking for an interchange with you either - merely that I will continue -like other people do - to comment on other people's posts and if I feel there are inaccuracies, I will continue to say so. This doesn't make me hostile at all.

Ohlalalalala · 07/11/2023 16:34

ProvincialLady1 · 07/11/2023 16:09

You are not a serious person.

Why not? I would love to understand too. Israel's have the most advanced spying capabilities, why don't they use these to fish out Hamas instead of raining bombs on densely populated areas without regard to human life and killing people in the thousands?

OP posts:
HeidiInTheBigCity · 07/11/2023 16:28

Whoha · 07/11/2023 15:42

Does anyone have a better plan of action for Israel?
They need to do whatever it takes to get rid of Hamas in order to protect their citizens!

Apart from the fact that the cost in human lives is absolutely horrific and utterly unacceptable, Israel´s actions are downright stupid from a long-term, strategic point of view - and not only for Israel!

The more suffering they cause, the more people will hate them! A whole generation of Gazan children, right now, is learning a hands-on lessons that is hard to understand as anything other than "Israel is the devil"! Do you think they will grow up and happily sing along to the Hatikvah? Or is Israel playing a hands-on role in forming the ideology of a new Hamas?

More globally speaking: a whole generation of young people, globally, is growing up and learning the same! They are not getting their news from the BBC but from TikTok, from Twitter, and from Telegram Channels where the unfiltered horror is visible to everyone and anyone. (I am actually deeply worried for them - as well as for adults because secondary trauma is a thing!). They are currently growing up and learning that Israel must be utterly and completely evil.

And minorities, people in the Global South, are watching and learning something else, too: specifically, that Western powers would be more than happy for them to be slaughtered, and that the entirety of the supposed Western value system is nothing but hypocrisy and lies. So ... why not prefer China over the US?! Iran over the UK?

... and I am not saying that all of this is, in fact, true. My own takes are a lot more nuanced than this. But you only have to follow social media to see an alarming rise not only in anti-Israeli but also more general anti-Western sentiment happening live! This will not "just go away" again. Again: secondary trauma exists, and trauma has a way of burning itself into everything we are, believe, and say!

This is, in fact, all very dangerous both for Israel and for the so-called liberal consensus.

... and that is, literally, just mostly the bombing! I have not even touched upon the brutally inhumane medieval siege tactics of cutting people off food and water - that is not even really tactically useful in the short term (but does one hell of a job on the "Israel is evil" propaganda front)!

Finally, while many will not be seeing it like this right now, the current strategy is also just bad for Israeli identity in the long term. Eventually, some sort of consensus will emerge that, yes, this was, in fact just horrifically wrong! Because it is. And because, after the war is over, Western governments will want to return ASAP to the pretense of being in favour of such things such as international law and human rights. So PhD theses will be written, documentaries will be produced , politicians who are no longer in office will be written off as the evil ones who let it happen and the ones still in office will find some sort of an excuse about how some of the facts were not immediately clear and, in hindight, ... it was different then ... whatever! Unless they can just get away with never mentioning it again, of course! Because this will be necessary to keep the system stable! This is precisely what has happened after every single Western-backed atrocity! But this narrative generally needs a scapegoat! And it will have to be Israelis. You see, I work with a lot of Germans, and Germans have somehow, literally, had to shape their national identity around the fact that they committed the holocaust. They have a word for this. They call it "Tätergesellschaft" (perpetrator society). They also have "Vergangenheitsbewältigung", which roughly means "coming to terms with the past". And while I am absolutely not - just to make this crystal clear - in any way, shape or form equating Gaza 2023 with Germany 1941, narratives tend not to care that much about facts. I wish future Israelis a better future than "people whose identity re-shapes to revolve around the fact that their ancestors did the unspeakable"!

That is why! Or, some of the reasons why!

Yes, there are better options, for example:

  1. Ceasefire
  2. Hostage exchange
  3. UN peacekeepers (or some other international force - the point is: Israel cannot
  4. The arrest and prosecution of those responsible (and, yes, that has to include Israelis)
  5. Good faith negotiations for a political settlement

This is not going to happen, mind, and I know it! But it would be far, far, far better in terms of a response - not just for Palestinians, but also Israelis. For us all!

It could happen, but for it to happen, Netanyahu needs to be removed as PM!

EDIT: oh, yikes! I wrote an essay!

OuiOuiKitty · 07/11/2023 16:27

Whoha · 07/11/2023 15:42

Does anyone have a better plan of action for Israel?
They need to do whatever it takes to get rid of Hamas in order to protect their citizens!

So they get a free pass to kill 1000s of someone else's citizens? Israel have already before this October killed far more of Palestinians citizens than have been killed in Israel. Does that mean you agree that Hamas also can do whatever they want to defend their citizens? If not why not?

Ohlalalalala · 07/11/2023 16:25

OuiOuiKitty · 07/11/2023 15:17

I would love for the people who insist that this is just Isrsel protecting themselves and that it is all about catching Hamas to watch Motazs instagram stories from an hour ago where he runs to building that has just been bombed and tell me what part of that looks like protection or catching Hamas. What part of the mums screaming hysterically for their children is about protecting Israelis? What part of the toddler being pulled limp from the rubble is about catching Hamas? I don't get it. I just see acts of terror and a massacre. I would genuinely, really love to know how that scene is protecting Israelis? Because I don't get it? I don't understand what those screaming mums, what those terrified children, what that poor toddler are doing to Israel that is so bad they need this to happen to them to protect Israelis from them.

Exactly 😔
I no longer watch, at all.

OP posts:
OuiOuiKitty · 07/11/2023 16:24

ProvincialLady1 · 07/11/2023 16:09

You are not a serious person.

I'm deadly serious but I will take your snarky reply to mean that you don't have any words to defend the indefensible. I get it, trust me. I don't understand how anyone can defend it either.

ProvincialLady1 · 07/11/2023 16:09

OuiOuiKitty · 07/11/2023 15:17

I would love for the people who insist that this is just Isrsel protecting themselves and that it is all about catching Hamas to watch Motazs instagram stories from an hour ago where he runs to building that has just been bombed and tell me what part of that looks like protection or catching Hamas. What part of the mums screaming hysterically for their children is about protecting Israelis? What part of the toddler being pulled limp from the rubble is about catching Hamas? I don't get it. I just see acts of terror and a massacre. I would genuinely, really love to know how that scene is protecting Israelis? Because I don't get it? I don't understand what those screaming mums, what those terrified children, what that poor toddler are doing to Israel that is so bad they need this to happen to them to protect Israelis from them.

You are not a serious person.

ProvincialLady1 · 07/11/2023 16:07

EasterIssland · 07/11/2023 15:12

If you destroy hamas then why do you need to control the security of another country than

I'm not arguing they should control it, but clearly something needs to be put in place for security and governance, as well as rebuilding.

FOJN · 07/11/2023 16:05

From Aljazeera as no one else is offering rolling coverage.

Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant says that at the end of the war, the Israeli army will have absolute freedom of action in Gaza. The comment comes after Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told ABC News Israel would take responsibility for security in Gaza for an “indefinite period”.

This is the man who said Israel would cut all food, water and power to Gaza because "we are fighting human animals and will act accordingly".

I can't imagine that the IDF having "absolute freedom of action" means anything good for Gaza.

Whoha · 07/11/2023 15:42

Does anyone have a better plan of action for Israel?
They need to do whatever it takes to get rid of Hamas in order to protect their citizens!

LethargicButAwesome · 07/11/2023 15:29

Itsaharddlife · 07/11/2023 14:37

I don't think they're interested in an occupation.
After all they pretty much had the gazans under seige even without constant military presence.
The fact that they control borders, food, electricity and allow military incursions into gaza pretty much says as such.
Many human rights organisations have long considered Gaza under a form of seige or occupation despite Israels removal of military force.

Thats exactly what they are interested in occupation and eventually over time reducing the amount of space palestinians have replacing it with israeli settlements like they are doing in the west bank.

Number of Palestinians killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza over 10,000 😡
Parkingt111 · 07/11/2023 15:17

Jupitersstorm · 07/11/2023 15:13

I believe that it is my right to point out when an incorrect fact is presented on Mumsnet.

Edited

Ah like how you pointed out yesterday if biden was annoyed or 'seriously annoyed', was that another incorrect fact you wanted to point out?
You will find when you are rude and condescending even if you have a point there will be few people who are willing to engage with you. UN saying they believe Gaza is still under a form of occupation is a fact

And you can stop tagging me as this will be my last response to you

OuiOuiKitty · 07/11/2023 15:17

I would love for the people who insist that this is just Isrsel protecting themselves and that it is all about catching Hamas to watch Motazs instagram stories from an hour ago where he runs to building that has just been bombed and tell me what part of that looks like protection or catching Hamas. What part of the mums screaming hysterically for their children is about protecting Israelis? What part of the toddler being pulled limp from the rubble is about catching Hamas? I don't get it. I just see acts of terror and a massacre. I would genuinely, really love to know how that scene is protecting Israelis? Because I don't get it? I don't understand what those screaming mums, what those terrified children, what that poor toddler are doing to Israel that is so bad they need this to happen to them to protect Israelis from them.

Jupitersstorm · 07/11/2023 15:13

Parkingt111 · 07/11/2023 14:46

Tbh I really don't care what you think as you have been consistently hostile and I don't wish to converse with you

I believe that it is my right to point out when an incorrect fact is presented on Mumsnet.

EasterIssland · 07/11/2023 15:12

ProvincialLady1 · 07/11/2023 15:09

The war was and is meant to be to destroy Hamas's capability to carry out further attacks, as well as the return of hostages. This is not difficult information to find.

If you destroy hamas then why do you need to control the security of another country than

Jupitersstorm · 07/11/2023 15:11

Parkingt111 · 07/11/2023 14:59

According to the UN and other groups Gaza is already under occupation of sorts
This would further enforce it

Not according to Biden who has warned Israel not to reoccupy.

"On October 15, US President Joe Biden cautioned Israel not to “reoccupy” Gaza. This choice of words touched on a core debate: is Israel occupying the Gaza Strip—such that it owes protections to the population there—or is it not?
Israel believes it “disengaged” from Gaza in 2005 when it completely withdrew its military and civilians from the area. With this withdrawal, Israel and the United States—as well as many international legal, military, and foreign policy experts—argue that Israel ceded the effective control needed under the legal definition of occupation, therefore ending the occupation."

ProvincialLady1 · 07/11/2023 15:09

EasterIssland · 07/11/2023 15:05

you can take it as you want. It’s what Israel’s government is saying. The war was meant to be to get the hostages back. This doesn’t have anything to do with the hostages at all but about power and control 🤷🏻‍♀️

The war was and is meant to be to destroy Hamas's capability to carry out further attacks, as well as the return of hostages. This is not difficult information to find.

EasterIssland · 07/11/2023 15:05

Jupitersstorm · 07/11/2023 14:45

This is not evidence is it?

you can take it as you want. It’s what Israel’s government is saying. The war was meant to be to get the hostages back. This doesn’t have anything to do with the hostages at all but about power and control 🤷🏻‍♀️

Parkingt111 · 07/11/2023 14:59

Itsaharddlife · 07/11/2023 14:37

I don't think they're interested in an occupation.
After all they pretty much had the gazans under seige even without constant military presence.
The fact that they control borders, food, electricity and allow military incursions into gaza pretty much says as such.
Many human rights organisations have long considered Gaza under a form of seige or occupation despite Israels removal of military force.

According to the UN and other groups Gaza is already under occupation of sorts
This would further enforce it

Parkingt111 · 07/11/2023 14:46

Jupitersstorm · 07/11/2023 14:26

"That's currently Israels plan".

I take real issue with this. Where is the evidence that occupation is Israel's plan?
It might be your opinion but a dangerous one to state it as a fact.

Tbh I really don't care what you think as you have been consistently hostile and I don't wish to converse with you

Jupitersstorm · 07/11/2023 14:45

EasterIssland · 07/11/2023 14:36

I.e. why should they take care of gazans security?

This is not evidence is it?

Itsaharddlife · 07/11/2023 14:37

Jupitersstorm · 07/11/2023 14:26

"That's currently Israels plan".

I take real issue with this. Where is the evidence that occupation is Israel's plan?
It might be your opinion but a dangerous one to state it as a fact.

I don't think they're interested in an occupation.
After all they pretty much had the gazans under seige even without constant military presence.
The fact that they control borders, food, electricity and allow military incursions into gaza pretty much says as such.
Many human rights organisations have long considered Gaza under a form of seige or occupation despite Israels removal of military force.

EasterIssland · 07/11/2023 14:36

Jupitersstorm · 07/11/2023 14:26

"That's currently Israels plan".

I take real issue with this. Where is the evidence that occupation is Israel's plan?
It might be your opinion but a dangerous one to state it as a fact.

I.e. why should they take care of gazans security?

Number of Palestinians killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza over 10,000 😡
Number of Palestinians killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza over 10,000 😡