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Conflict in the Middle East
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Itsaharddlife · 07/11/2023 21:03

HeidiInTheBigCity · 07/11/2023 20:49

I am really sorry you feel this way!

FYI, there is such a thing as "secondary trauma" and, yes, it is trauma.

I am hardly an expert on the subject but I would encourage you to go ahead and look it up to find some coping strategies! Noone is being helped - least of all Gazans - when you cannot sleep at night!

FWIW, I have war trauma - no secondary about it, just plain old "did not do very well after being exposed to some truly horrific shit". I am back in therapy now, for the first time in a decade, because I realised the situation was really triggering me. There is nothing wrong about seeking help! On the contrary! Well people make better advocates!

Thank you.

I've read your posts on other threads. Im sorry you had to go through that, I think you're incredibly brave for posting on here. It can't be easy.
I'm glad to hear you're getting help.

HeidiInTheBigCity · 07/11/2023 20:49

Itsaharddlife · 07/11/2023 20:42

Everyday I think to myself that I won't read anything about the situation today. I can't sleep at night, seeing videos of children screaming in pain, small feet trapped beneath rubble, families crying, holding limp broken bodies of small children.
Yet I can't avoid reading daily as my thoughts are consumed with their suffering. I feel so helpless, like I'm sure so many others do on here too. Yet I still see so many on this forum justifying this, or casually acknowledging the sadness of it but then claim "israel has the right to defend it self". How do these people sleep at night

I am really sorry you feel this way!

FYI, there is such a thing as "secondary trauma" and, yes, it is trauma.

I am hardly an expert on the subject but I would encourage you to go ahead and look it up to find some coping strategies! Noone is being helped - least of all Gazans - when you cannot sleep at night!

FWIW, I have war trauma - no secondary about it, just plain old "did not do very well after being exposed to some truly horrific shit". I am back in therapy now, for the first time in a decade, because I realised the situation was really triggering me. There is nothing wrong about seeking help! On the contrary! Well people make better advocates!

Itsaharddlife · 07/11/2023 20:45

Ohlalalalala · 07/11/2023 20:27

They have no shame.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzUFpCiNAMj/?igshid=dnJpYnlhZ3lrdHdj

Committing a genocide and feeling proud of themselves 😡

From Al-Jazeera English
Israeli pop singer Narkis is seen singing with soldiers and calling to 'finish off Gaza', as Israel continues bombarding the besieged enclave.

3 weeks ago I would try and be more sensitive to other people's views and would try and understand both sides of the conflict.
But this is just pure evil, there's no other word for it

Itsaharddlife · 07/11/2023 20:42

Everyday I think to myself that I won't read anything about the situation today. I can't sleep at night, seeing videos of children screaming in pain, small feet trapped beneath rubble, families crying, holding limp broken bodies of small children.
Yet I can't avoid reading daily as my thoughts are consumed with their suffering. I feel so helpless, like I'm sure so many others do on here too. Yet I still see so many on this forum justifying this, or casually acknowledging the sadness of it but then claim "israel has the right to defend it self". How do these people sleep at night

Ohlalalalala · 07/11/2023 20:27

They have no shame.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzUFpCiNAMj/?igshid=dnJpYnlhZ3lrdHdj

Committing a genocide and feeling proud of themselves 😡

From Al-Jazeera English
Israeli pop singer Narkis is seen singing with soldiers and calling to 'finish off Gaza', as Israel continues bombarding the besieged enclave.

Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzUFpCiNAMj?igshid=dnJpYnlhZ3lrdHdj

OP posts:
HaveANiceTime · 07/11/2023 20:20

Rubbishagain · 07/11/2023 19:52

You can extract oil from a city, actually. Quite easily, since anyone in LA could tell you.

But it's not that, even if oil is usually a good reason to do horrific shit.

The actual reasons for Hamas to have made a move when they did is because of normalisation of relations between Saudi Arabia and Israel, which would have definitely killed off any hope for any future/ Palestinian state. The window was closing, and despite their best efforts in protest, no one cared. No one was talking about the Middle-East with this topic until Hamas did their attack. Literally a week before the attack, the US gov't was waxing lyrical about how stable the region was.

Instead, you have Hamas light a match that strikes a fuse that is Israel's reputation on the world stage. They can't do much more to fall further than they have now in the eyes of the masses, and one reason Hezbollah and others haven't leapt in would be because Hamas is happy to keep going with whittling down the IDF and winning the public vote as Israel ineffectually lashes out at Gazans and West Bankers and even Lebanon and Syria, all the more looking like a mad dog and wasting their resources (they're running out of heavy bombs and running their jets way too hard, they've also lost a lot of Merkavas and Namers in just a week or so of fighting).

Another big reason could be the proposed canal.

https://www.tiktok.com/@celinelilas/video/7296083168304696607?embed_source=121355059%2C121351166%2C121331973%2C120811592%2C120810756%3Bnull%3Bembed_share&refer=embed&referer_url=forums.somethingawful.com%2F&referer_video_id=7296083168304696607

Celine Lilas on TikTok

this might be the most important video i have ever made… #freepalestine #standwithpalestine #ceasefirenow #palestine

https://www.tiktok.com/@celinelilas/video/7296083168304696607?embed_source=121355059%2C121351166%2C121331973%2C120811592%2C120810756%3Bnull%3Bembed_share&refer=embed&referer_url=forums.somethingawful.com%2F&referer_video_id=7296083168304696607

Efacsen · 07/11/2023 19:48

IDF have given a 4 hour window for people to leave Gaza City and move into southern Gaza

Where will they all go - there's already people sleeping in the rubble and on the streets because the UN facilities are full to over-flowing. Is this the plan to squash the entire population into less than half of Gaza pushing and pushing until the gates into Egypt collapse under the pressure

More and more stuff is being flown into Egypt - today the French sent a 169 bed field hospital plus medical team And some stuff about the UK army preparing for ME humanitarian action

LethargicButAwesome · 07/11/2023 19:17

ProvincialLady1 · 07/11/2023 16:09

You are not a serious person.

Deadly serious i follow him on insta too, just camt stop 😢

feralunderclass · 07/11/2023 18:57

Parkingt111 · 07/11/2023 18:29

I really have alot of respect for the doctors and those working in the medical field in Gaza right now.
To think that they are having to perform amputations without anaesthesia is horrifying

I can't imagine the trauma that is going to haunt them until their dying day 😢. I don't know how they are still able to go on.

Parkingt111 · 07/11/2023 18:42

OuiOuiKitty · 07/11/2023 18:22

I'm just not arsed anymore. If people want to justify the killing, injuring and traumatising of millions of people then that's up to them. I used to be hopeful that when people saw the scale of death and suffering they are supporting they would give their head a wobble. I was wrong 🤷🏻‍♀️. I'm done justifying why I'm against an attempted genocide and why I think 'never again' should mean 'never again to anyone'. Reading some article by some warmongerer about why it's OK it's never going to change my core beliefs that the collective punishment of millions and the killing of 1000s is wrong.

I think you have done amazing in highlighting the grave situation of the Palestinians.
There will always be people who have opposing views but I don't think you should let that stop you from speaking up ❤️

Parkingt111 · 07/11/2023 18:29

I really have alot of respect for the doctors and those working in the medical field in Gaza right now.
To think that they are having to perform amputations without anaesthesia is horrifying

Number of Palestinians killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza over 10,000 😡
Carlalane · 07/11/2023 18:25

With all the empirical evidence some of you have (collectectively) dug up during the last 4 weeks, you could have been part way towards a degree by now.

OuiOuiKitty · 07/11/2023 18:22

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

I'm just not arsed anymore. If people want to justify the killing, injuring and traumatising of millions of people then that's up to them. I used to be hopeful that when people saw the scale of death and suffering they are supporting they would give their head a wobble. I was wrong 🤷🏻‍♀️. I'm done justifying why I'm against an attempted genocide and why I think 'never again' should mean 'never again to anyone'. Reading some article by some warmongerer about why it's OK it's never going to change my core beliefs that the collective punishment of millions and the killing of 1000s is wrong.

Parkingt111 · 07/11/2023 18:20

@ProvincialLady1 iv just had a look at the author and his entire twitter feed seems to be on praising the IDF. Hundreds of tweets and re tweets
Whilst I appreciate there will be some elements of truth but it's clearly written in a very biased manner by a very biased author

Ohlalalalala · 07/11/2023 18:14

Forgot to highlight the first part too:

"In recent years and, despite the reality, in the last weeks, a trend among laws of armed conflict scholars has consolidated. This trend is in antithesis to the choral denunciation of mass civilian victimization as unlawful and criminal in other conflict theatres (such as, agreeably, in relation to the war against Ukraine). In contrast, bombing campaigns in Gaza have attracted and continue to attract the highest volume of academic commentaries emphasizing the limits of and derogations to civilian immunity from attacks. The ‘unfortunate/tragic but probably proportionate civilian loss of life’ formula has been repeated by countless analyses".

OP posts:
Ohlalalalala · 07/11/2023 18:11

@ProvincialLady1 🙄

A lethal misconception, in Gaza and beyond: disguising indiscriminate attacks as potentially proportionate in discourses on the laws of war
Blog of the European Journal of International Law

https://www.ejiltalk.org/a-lethal-misconception-in-gaza-and-beyond-disguising-indiscriminate-attacks-as-potentially-proportionate-in-discourses-on-the-laws-of-war/

Some exerpts:

"In recent years and, despite the reality, in the last weeks, a trend among laws of armed conflict scholars has consolidated. This trend is in antithesis to the choral denunciation of mass civilian victimization as unlawful and criminal in other conflict theatres (such as, agreeably, in relation to the war against Ukraine). In contrast, bombing campaigns in Gaza have attracted and continue to attract the highest volume of academic commentaries emphasizing the limits of and derogations to civilian immunity from attacks. The ‘unfortunate/tragic but probably proportionate civilian loss of life’ formula has been repeated by countless analyses.

Notwithstanding the structural illegalities of this conflict, it is not new to read abundance of legal commentaries embracing the prism of the potential lawfulness of the killing of crowds of Palestinian civilians. However, what is new is that the embracement of this same prism of validations continues unabated while the killing of besieged, displaced, healthcare-denied and increasingly starving civilians in Gaza assumes shocking proportions by the minute. This trend continues despite top Israeli officials announced this offensive denying the existence itself of innocent civilians, and despite IDF spokespersons made clear this campaign had no accuracy priority.

This post (synthetizing some arguments of a longer article) submits that the described legitimizing prism reproduces some serious misconceptions, particularly on how we should construe the relationship between distinction and proportionality under customary IHL.

Many analyses seem to have so far unduly overexpanded proportionality into the realm of distinction, contributing to the current failure of most IHL and international criminal restraints. Even recent analyses debating in bello proportionality of IDF attacks, each killing and injuring several hundreds of civilians, such as the bombing of the Jabalia refugee camp in Northern Gaza (see e.g., inter alia, Manea), do not mention once the prohibition of indiscriminate attacks, and seem to imply that violations of distinction do not occur unless “direct and deliberate attacks” against civilians or civilian objects are launched.

I do not disagree with the facts indicated by Andrea. However, assuming Hamas members omitted to take passive precautions (determining this must include feasibility considerations, see Schmitt), and assuming tunnels are lawful targets (which can be neutralized or captured via less devastating methods), this does in no way render Palestinian civilians less civilian, less protected, or admissible targets of proximity. It is aerial attacks we are discussing. There is no way, I think, to bomb underground tunnels with GBU-31 warheads without knowingly flattening densely populated neighbourhoods with hundreds of civilians that will certainly be killed.

The customary prohibition of indiscriminate attacks, as a consequence, becomes crucial, and reminds lawyers and armed actors that distinction does not only prohibit direct and deliberate attacks on civilians and civilian objects, it also prohibits attacks renouncing to discern between them and lawful targets. "

A lethal misconception, in Gaza and beyond: disguising indiscriminate attacks as potentially proportionate in discourses on the laws of war

In recent years and, despite the reality, in the last weeks, a trend among laws of armed conflict scholars has consolidated. This trend is in antithesis to the choral denunciation of mass civilian …

https://www.ejiltalk.org/a-lethal-misconception-in-gaza-and-beyond-disguising-indiscriminate-attacks-as-potentially-proportionate-in-discourses-on-the-laws-of-war

OP posts:
Carlalane · 07/11/2023 18:09

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Carlalane · 07/11/2023 18:05

Great article @ProvincialLady1. I agree in its entirety.

OuiOuiKitty · 07/11/2023 18:05

further evidence that it is respecting the rules of war

I read this line from your copy and paste and won't go any further. Israel aren't respecting the rules of war. We know that. I'm not reading more people lying and trying to justify the unjustifiable, there's more than enough of that on here. Appreciate the effort though, gold star ⭐️

pulka · 07/11/2023 17:58

@Carlalane thank you for your insightful input.

Ohlalalalala · 07/11/2023 17:54

pulka · 07/11/2023 17:43

The sheer bloodlust from those defending the continual bombing of Gazan civilians on these threads is revolting. I cannot fathom how humans can think like this. Or how the bombing of civilians can in any way be called self defence, or how it could be helpful for creating peace for both Israel and Palestine. I cannot fathom how anyone can look at the images coming from Gaza, of children and babies in shock or bleeding or being carried in their parents arms, and think of any excuse at all that this is fair or that they deserve this because 'Hamas!'. Some of the excusing and whataboutery is completely sick to be honest.

True.

OP posts:
ProvincialLady1 · 07/11/2023 17:53

OuiOuiKitty · 07/11/2023 16:24

I'm deadly serious but I will take your snarky reply to mean that you don't have any words to defend the indefensible. I get it, trust me. I don't understand how anyone can defend it either.

I defend any nation's right to defend themselves against avowed terrorists sitting on their doorstep with millions (if not billions) of dollars worth of military equipment promising to continue to commit atrocities against them ad infinitum.

Here is an article you may find useful as to the nature and legality of this type of warfare:

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/07/opinions/israel-hamas-gaza-not-war-crimes-spencer/index.html

A couple of exerpts for those interested:

"There is no escaping that pursuing a terrorist organization touches off a nightmarish landscape of war. The visually repulsive imagery in Gaza essentially recreates the same scenes that unfolded under American and allied campaigns fighting Al Qaeda, ISIS and other terror groups, because that is what it looks like when you are forced to uproot a sadistic terror organization embedded in an urban area."

"Like all similar conflicts in modern times, a battle in Gaza will look like the entire city was purposely razed to the ground or indiscriminately carpet bombed – but it wasn’t. Israel possesses the military capacity to do so, and the fact that it doesn’t employ such means is further evidence that it is respecting the rules of war. It is also a sign that this is not revenge – a gross mischaracterization of Israeli aims – but instead a careful defensive campaign to ensure Israel’s survival."

Opinion: I’m an expert in urban warfare. Israel is upholding the laws of war | CNN

During Israel’s attack on Gaza, the destruction and suffering, as awful as they are, don’t automatically constitute war crimes – otherwise, nearly any military action in a populated area would violate the laws of armed conflict by John Spencer

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/07/opinions/israel-hamas-gaza-not-war-crimes-spencer/index.html

Carlalane · 07/11/2023 17:47

pulka · 07/11/2023 17:43

The sheer bloodlust from those defending the continual bombing of Gazan civilians on these threads is revolting. I cannot fathom how humans can think like this. Or how the bombing of civilians can in any way be called self defence, or how it could be helpful for creating peace for both Israel and Palestine. I cannot fathom how anyone can look at the images coming from Gaza, of children and babies in shock or bleeding or being carried in their parents arms, and think of any excuse at all that this is fair or that they deserve this because 'Hamas!'. Some of the excusing and whataboutery is completely sick to be honest.

Blood lust! Get over yourself. 🙄

pulka · 07/11/2023 17:43

The sheer bloodlust from those defending the continual bombing of Gazan civilians on these threads is revolting. I cannot fathom how humans can think like this. Or how the bombing of civilians can in any way be called self defence, or how it could be helpful for creating peace for both Israel and Palestine. I cannot fathom how anyone can look at the images coming from Gaza, of children and babies in shock or bleeding or being carried in their parents arms, and think of any excuse at all that this is fair or that they deserve this because 'Hamas!'. Some of the excusing and whataboutery is completely sick to be honest.