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Conflict in the Middle East
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Parkingt111 · 08/11/2023 20:05

MissyB1 · 08/11/2023 20:03

What you were watching was ethnic cleansing, it made me furious.

Exactly. Thank you
It was very painful to see

MissyB1 · 08/11/2023 20:03

EsmaCannonball · 08/11/2023 19:51

I've just seen the footage on Channel 4 News of the Palestinians in Gaza moving south under the gaze of IDF soldiers. It was uncomfortable to watch. But then I thought, if they were Israeli civilians being displaced, Hamas wouldn't be watching them, they would be slaughtering them.

What you were watching was ethnic cleansing, it made me furious.

Ecdysiast · 08/11/2023 20:02

EsmaCannonball · 08/11/2023 19:51

I've just seen the footage on Channel 4 News of the Palestinians in Gaza moving south under the gaze of IDF soldiers. It was uncomfortable to watch. But then I thought, if they were Israeli civilians being displaced, Hamas wouldn't be watching them, they would be slaughtering them.

@EsmaCannonball I think the guys in the video would happily slaughter them:
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzUFpCiNAMj/
Anyway, the operation is not over, they might still get slaughtered.

Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzUFpCiNAMj

LittleMsTellTheTruth · 08/11/2023 19:57

Thank you @Ecdysiast , I had a feeling it was going to be very one-sided and bad.
I can see why the poster didn’t want to answer.
Sorry that you had to waste the time, but I appreciate the summary.

EsmaCannonball · 08/11/2023 19:51

I've just seen the footage on Channel 4 News of the Palestinians in Gaza moving south under the gaze of IDF soldiers. It was uncomfortable to watch. But then I thought, if they were Israeli civilians being displaced, Hamas wouldn't be watching them, they would be slaughtering them.

Ecdysiast · 08/11/2023 19:49

Newbutoldfather · 08/11/2023 18:00

@LittleMsTellTheTruth ,

The idea of the link is to watch it, not for me to summarise it to you! Then, after listening, you can critique it.

It is a German Green Party politician, not a natural ally of Israel some might think.

Or, if you don’t want to listen to it, you can just ignore.

@LittleMsTellTheTruth I watched all of it so you don't have to. He is a bit convoluted, but here are his main points:
-anti-Semitism is wrong and should not be tolerated.
-Germany is a great ally of Israel and has an obligation to support it because of the Holocaust.
-Many Jews that he has spoken to in Germany are fearful.
-The protests against Israel's actions in Gaza are 'Islamist demonstrations" and must be stopped. Anyone who does anything illegal at protests should have their residency permits taken away (implying that all demonstrators are foreigners).
-The Muslim community in Germany is largely to blame for anti-Semitism in Germany because the right-wing nationalists are 'holding back' for tactical reasons, since they prefer to agitate Muslims.
-The political left in Germany should not take the view that there are 2 sides in the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. They should side with Israel.
-He talks about the terrible humanitarian situation of the Palestinians (without even mentioning how many have been killed by Israel) but blames everything on Hamas.

That was 10 minutes of my life that I will never get back.

Ohlalalalala · 08/11/2023 18:50

Written by an "embedded" journalist 😅
"We were a propaganda arm of our governments. At the start the censors enforced that, but by the end we were our own censors. We were cheerleaders."
— Charles Lynch

OP posts:
Namesbeenchanged · 08/11/2023 18:01

LittleMsTellTheTruth · 08/11/2023 17:57

@Newbutoldfather
Does he address islamaphobia and anti muslim/arab/Palestine views and how to prevent rising hate crimes towards these groups?
Does he talk about horrors that are happening in Gaza and West Bank?

Maybe have a watch and decide?

Newbutoldfather · 08/11/2023 18:00

@LittleMsTellTheTruth ,

The idea of the link is to watch it, not for me to summarise it to you! Then, after listening, you can critique it.

It is a German Green Party politician, not a natural ally of Israel some might think.

Or, if you don’t want to listen to it, you can just ignore.

LittleMsTellTheTruth · 08/11/2023 17:57

@Newbutoldfather
Does he address islamaphobia and anti muslim/arab/Palestine views and how to prevent rising hate crimes towards these groups?
Does he talk about horrors that are happening in Gaza and West Bank?

Newbutoldfather · 08/11/2023 17:48

This video by a German politician is a staunch defence of Israel’s right to defend itself and why Muslims should not be backing Hamas or excusing them.

It is 10 minutes of subtitled German but well worth the effort.

It strongly backs Israel but is nuanced, criticising Israel’s policies in several areas.

Robert Habeck on Israel and Antisemitism

It's almost four weeks since the horrific terrorist attack on #Israel. A lot has happened, the public debate has become heated and confused. Find thoughts fr...

https://youtu.be/MdZvkkpJaVI?si=R4-21eSKnskR_-nL

Ecdysiast · 08/11/2023 16:28

@Parkingt111
I honestly believe that the dehumanisation of the Palestinian people is so deeply entrenched in Israeli military society that Palestinian children are not seen as children at all, which makes it easy to justify killing them.

Here's an article by Israeli journalist Gideon Levy on the topic - it was published this week in Haaretz:

'If we can't see Gaza's dead children's eyes, can we see children at all?'

'Is there a difference between children and children? Are the photos of children killed in Jabalya supposed to shock us less than those of children killed in Be’eri? Are photos of dead children in Jabalya even supposed to shock us, and is it legitimate to be shocked by them?

Our own children are dearer to our heart than anything in the world, and the heart of every Israeli is more shocked by Israeli children who have been killed than by any other dead child. That’s human and understandable. But we cannot refrain from leaving room for shock at the mass slaughter of children in Gaza, only because our children were also killed.

The killing in Gaza should weigh particularly heavily if we recall who these children are and who brought their disaster upon them? (answer: Israel and Hamas.) What did their lives and deaths look like? (Answer: Children who lived in poverty, misery, under siege, seeking refuge with no present and no future, overwhelmingly due to Israel.)

A good friend, a famous lefty, wrote over the weekend: “At war I can’t pity both sides equally. Maybe in Ukraine, but not here. Gideon Levy describes a burned baby, and I see the baby from Nir Oz.”

The baby in Nir Oz was murdered by Hamas scum with indescribable cruelty. The Israel Defense Forces kills the babies in Jabalya cooly, without any particular malice, but in gruesome numbers. Seeing only the baby in Nir Oz and not the one in Jabalya? That veers into twisted morality, especially as the number of dead children in Gaza reaches an unprecedented toll – 3,900 children as of Saturday, according to the Palestinian health ministry.

The weekend in Gaza was blood-soaked, and the videos emerging from there were among the most shocking we’ve seen in this horrible war. The torn bodies of eight infants embracing one another put into two white plastic bags, four infants per bag, zippers close the bags forever, en route to a mass grave. They were Gazan babies. Someone killed them. This is war, but even in war, limits need to be set.

In another video, screams were heard next to ruins strewn with dozens of bodies, mostly of children. The areas around Gaza’s hospitals are bombed incessantly. On Saturday it was the al-Nasser children’s hospital, where children with cancer are treated and five people were killed. It’s not hard to imagine the terror of the hospitalized children. This hospital was also required to evacuate, as though there was where to, or how.

An ambulance with wounded people en route to the Rafah Crossing was bombed by the air force. Israel claims there were terrorists in it. The coastal road on which the displaced are trying to flee south, at Israel’s command, was strewn with bodies, including many children. Each bombing in Gaza kills children.

All this is not supposed to shock any Israeli, for Israel is mourning its dead. Not only should it not shock – shock has been banned and criminalized. Those expressing shock are arrested, particularly if they are Arab citizens. You must not be shocked at the carnage in Gaza, not even of children about whose innocence and lack of guilt there can be no debate; protesting their killing is full-on treason. They are Gazan children, and in Israel they are un-children, just like their parents are un-human; Our children were killed more cruelly.

“How can we not?” U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken asked on Friday, in response to the bodies of Gazan children pulled from the rubble. Blinken expressed how shocked he was by images of Israeli children whose father was murdered and his murderers opened the fridge and ate indifferently in front of the two crying orphans. Then he spoke of the dead children of Gaza: When I look in their eyes, I see my own children – How can we not?” he said.

And when we look at the eyes of the dead children of Gaza, we don’t see our own children. It is doubtful whether we see children at all. How can we not?

Parkingt111 · 08/11/2023 16:05

There's only so far the human shield argument can go
Infact more and more people are questioning how incompetent the IDF are if they have managed to kill this many civilians including over 4000 children when they are apparently trying their best not to

Number of Palestinians killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza over 10,000 😡
ProvincialLady1 · 08/11/2023 10:05

This reply has been deleted

We've now deleted this as it refers to a deleted post.

OneHurtSpaggettio · 08/11/2023 00:38

Jupitersstorm · 07/11/2023 14:26

"That's currently Israels plan".

I take real issue with this. Where is the evidence that occupation is Israel's plan?
It might be your opinion but a dangerous one to state it as a fact.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/us/politics/biden-israel-gaza.html

The fact that Biden said this in October and the US reiterated it today would imply as much.

Number of Palestinians killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza over 10,000 😡
OneHurtSpaggettio · 08/11/2023 00:29

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Ecdysiast · 08/11/2023 00:03

I hear you @HeidiInTheBigCity . I don't do well at switching off either. I try, but then I feel guilty for having the privilege to be able to switch off of I want to. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one. There should be a support group for this kind of thing!

Ecdysiast · 07/11/2023 23:57

Xenia · 07/11/2023 21:12

Over 60% of British people are not interested and take no sides in the conflict. I do take an interest, on the side of Israel which defending its very existence following an invasion.

You are entitled not your opinion @Xenia . But I should point out that Israel is the occupying power in this conflict (the Palestinians do not have a state and Israel controls their territory).
Any occupying power is by definition in 'offensive' mode, so it is the occupied party (i.e. the Palestinians) that is 'defending its existence'.

mauveiscurious · 07/11/2023 21:56

I think we all need to be aware that some posters will not be genuine and planting hatred to stir feelings up and create chaos.

Countries outside the West, as in previous world events have created discord and anger through Bots.

Please report those who step out the normal boundary of decency.

OneHurtSpaggettio · 07/11/2023 21:35

OneHurtSpaggettio · 07/11/2023 21:34

A bit rich coming from the pro-Israeli side considering 1,033 civilians were killed and the widely given number is 1,400, which actually includes IDF deaths.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/police-74-of-civilians-killed-october-7-identified/

Judging from what Doctors Without Borders and other humanitarian organisations are saying, and the fact that more UN workers have been killed than in any other conflict ever, I’d be inclined to believe that the numbers are pretty accurate.

To clarify, 1033 deaths is still horrific. I wish you had the decency to say the same about the Palestinian deaths.

OneHurtSpaggettio · 07/11/2023 21:34

PurpleChrayne · 06/11/2023 13:17

I presume you're aware that Al Jazeera is the mouthpiece of Qatar, and their source is the "Palestinian Health Ministry", which is Hamas.

A bit rich coming from the pro-Israeli side considering 1,033 civilians were killed and the widely given number is 1,400, which actually includes IDF deaths.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/police-74-of-civilians-killed-october-7-identified/

Judging from what Doctors Without Borders and other humanitarian organisations are saying, and the fact that more UN workers have been killed than in any other conflict ever, I’d be inclined to believe that the numbers are pretty accurate.

HeidiInTheBigCity · 07/11/2023 21:28

Parkingt111 · 07/11/2023 21:16

I second that, you are incredibly brave.
I think most of us will have some lasting trauma from what we have witnessed even if it is second hand. It's so hard to fathom how cruel humans can be to each other.
And it's a constant worry and sadness to know what world our children are growing up in and that we won't be able to shield them forever from all of this.

It's also that guilt of the privilege we have that whilst we sit comfortably in our homes, so many are suffering everywhere.

I really pray that your therapy helps you in and you gain an abundant of peace and blessings in your life

I am going to be perfectly fine, no worries! I have found what works for me. That does not mean I am not sad, angry, or stressed - but I cope!

So, really, absolutely regardless of who you are or what your politics are or whom you back or ... whatever, I guess:

If this situation makes you struggle, please take good care of yourself!

Therapy is great (if you find a therapist who is a good match - more like "going through the motions, still feeling shit" when you have not found someone who works for you).

But, if you do not want to go there yet: meet some sympathetic friends, discuss IRL instead of with strangers on the internet (which will always become adversarial, even on a discussion about cute kittens - if the internet had a tag line, this should probably be it!). Go spend some time outside. Consider taking up yoga, or just meditation techniques. Take a "digital day off", ... or, while that is not, strictly speaking, healthy and ought to strictly be taken as "in small doses only" advice: go get really fucking drunk, then pull a sickie the next day and binge-watch the entirety of your most embarrassing TV addiction ...

... all really good stuff! Not everything is going to work for anyone. Personally, I do not do well on "switching off" at all - just how my brain works. I do a lot better after even just 5 minutes of some light exercice - again: may be different for you; just how my personal brain works!

In any case: please take good care of yourselves, all ... I am being dead serious when I say "nobody benefits from a lot of people just getting traumatised".

Parkingt111 · 07/11/2023 21:16

HeidiInTheBigCity · 07/11/2023 20:49

I am really sorry you feel this way!

FYI, there is such a thing as "secondary trauma" and, yes, it is trauma.

I am hardly an expert on the subject but I would encourage you to go ahead and look it up to find some coping strategies! Noone is being helped - least of all Gazans - when you cannot sleep at night!

FWIW, I have war trauma - no secondary about it, just plain old "did not do very well after being exposed to some truly horrific shit". I am back in therapy now, for the first time in a decade, because I realised the situation was really triggering me. There is nothing wrong about seeking help! On the contrary! Well people make better advocates!

I second that, you are incredibly brave.
I think most of us will have some lasting trauma from what we have witnessed even if it is second hand. It's so hard to fathom how cruel humans can be to each other.
And it's a constant worry and sadness to know what world our children are growing up in and that we won't be able to shield them forever from all of this.

It's also that guilt of the privilege we have that whilst we sit comfortably in our homes, so many are suffering everywhere.

I really pray that your therapy helps you in and you gain an abundant of peace and blessings in your life

Xenia · 07/11/2023 21:12

Over 60% of British people are not interested and take no sides in the conflict. I do take an interest, on the side of Israel which defending its very existence following an invasion.