Number of Palestinians killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza over 10,000 😡

Bingo. I’ve been accused of hating Jewish and that if it was any other religion I’d not criticise it as much.
the fact is I’m basque , if Spain was killing anyone like Israel is doing I’d be criticising it. If Spain was killing basque people when ETA killed , I’d be critising it. I care about people’s lives independently of their nationality or religion (im atheist after seeing how many people die because of religion and power)

I'm starting to think that the reason some posters like @SomeCatFromJapan can't imagine that anyone would have objections to Israel for any other reason than because they are a Jewish state is that they themselves for whatever reasons are very hung up about the fact that Isreal is a Jewish state so they can't see that to others it just isn't a factor in their feelings. There are so many different reasons people feel pulled to different causes. I will admit that I am hung up on it because Israel is an occupying power and the rhetoric from Israel regarding the primitive, barbaric Arabs needing to be controlled feels very close to home to me, I can relate. I know @HeidiInTheBigCity has spoken many times about why this feels very close to home to her and why she feels strongly about it.

We all have causes that we support for a myriad of reasons, most of us don't support causes out of hate, we support them because we feel like we can relate or because it is something we care deeply about. Some things just resonate more than others and that should be ok, we shouldn't be made to feel guilty or even worse bigoted because of that.

I keep hearing WW2 being mentioned and I thought it reminds me more of Germany invading Poland. Here's a description from the US Holocaust Memorial Museum

"The Nazis considered Poles to be racially inferior. Following the military defeat of Poland by Germany in September 1939, the Germans launched a campaign of terror intended to destroy the Polish nation and culture and to reduce the Poles to a leaderless population of peasants and workers laboring for German masters.
Hitler intended to “Germanize” Poland by replacing the Polish population with German colonists. Only enough Poles would be retained as were needed for basic labor, the rest would be driven out or killed.
As a first step, Nazi governors in the annexed territories (such as Arthur Greiser in the Warthegau View This Term in the Glossary
and Albert Forster in Danzig-West Prussia) forcibly deported hundreds of thousands of Poles into the Generalgouvernement. More than 500,000 ethnic Germans were then settled in these areas."

There's no need to be an "armchair general", you only need one eye and half a brain to conclude that Israel could have reacted proportionally. The world is finally realizing that this is a calculated, ongoing eradication of the Palestinian people.

@SomeCatFromJapan nailed it in her analysis of different people’s reactions.

This is despicable and it's happening before our very eyes. Just awful, horrific. Babies even and children killed with no repercussions.

The West are supporting the genocide which strengthens Israel. I fear it won't stop until there are no Palestinians left to defend their land.

Once you accept that Israel has a right to go after Hamas, the only question is how.

If you want to go back a really long time, the idea of dying in war was considered glorious. Recently, however, countries waging war want to achieve their objectives and lose as few of their own lives as possible. Is this morally right? I don’t know but every nation fights by this dictum today, which means ‘preparing the ground’ using missiles and bombs. This inevitably causes civilian deaths, especially in urban environments.

It is easy to be an armchair general and assume Israel could prosecute this war more gently. But no one on this thread knows that to be the case and so, for the moment at least, I am prepared to believe Israel is trying to kill the fewest civilians to achieve their objectives.

I don't see the Israel/Palestine conflict as remotely comparable to WW2.

And again for those still denying the deaths on here the US has also finally conceded that its in the thousands
There has been a definite shift in tone from the US. Its not because they suddenly have started caring about palestinians but to save their own backs

I agree antisemitism is a problem but insisting that all criticism of the Israeli government is a cover for antisemitism is wrong.

This.

I am horrified for the poor families of the Israelis targeted on 7/10. I understand the dread people must feel when surrounded by people who hate them. I see that the world is antisemitic and there are dangerous people who wish Jews ill. All of that is true.

But many of us grew up in communities and families where antisemitism wasn't at the forefront. I lived in a very mixed community with Jewish, Asian (Muslim and Hindu, mainly), Black, white people all going to school together and getting along OK. We were all friends together. I heard family and friends of family saying things about Asian and Black people. It was the 70s/80s in South London. People said shit. And my Black and Asian friends were harassed by the police and sometimes suffered serious racism. But I never remember a single person saying anything bad about Jewish friends and neighbours in my house. The only time I heard something once in the street was an elderly German women who said something and I was horrified. I thought it was something historical, like I'd walked into the Merchant of Venice or 1930s Germany. My parents, who could say some weird shit, liked and welcomed my Jewish friends, liked and welcomed our Jewish neighbours, respected my school friends. Used to joke around whenever I got a good mark and ask what Gil got because he was the only person in my class who ever did as well as I did. They spoke about the holocaust and my dad would get tearful because his father was career munitions in the army and was involved in some of the aftermath of the camps. Dad used to use this experience every time he'd hear about holocaust denial and say, "I know it was all true, my father was there and saw it". I say the same if ever I hear that bullshit.

Some people are using what is happening to excuse their antisemitism. But many people aren't critical of Israel for that reason. Many people are simply desperate for the slaughter of innocent children to stop. And there are clearly people who are using accusations of antisemitism to shut people up. It's a terrible thing to accuse someone of and to do that to silence opposition is dreadful.

People are also comparing what Hamas does and what Israel is doing and asking who the difference in expectations. It's because one is a democratically elected government, with a mandate, supported by many other similar governments. The other is a terrorist organisation, with no current mandate, not had an election in over a decade, terrible democracy score, supported by rogue nations. The people in Gaza haven't had the chance to elect someone else, they can't change things. But they are suffering and dying as a result. Expecting more from Israel isn't a sign of antisemitism, for some people it's a sign that we have expectations of humanity and decency. That hope is fading fast. It's really only the brave and inspiring Israelis who are protesting keeping that alive. In the face of horrible provocation.

See, the major issue I have with this is ... it could also be summarised up as "shit happens, if you are particularly outraged about this particular shit, you are just basically against Israel, in particular!"

This leaves out two important questions:

1. Who people are and how old they are! I will personally confess to not having taken any particular stance during the Vietnam War - my bad! I have the sorry excuse that my parents were minors and I had not even been born when that happened! In a "possibly more pertinent" sense: I very much was both a) alive and b) aware - in a very childish way; I thought that "Lebanon" was a mountain, and that people slept in caves at night and came out to shoot one another to death during daylight - of the Lebanese civil war, of people starving in Romania (my mum used to send food packages and take us with her to the post office), and Saddam invading Kuwait, followed by the US bombing Iraq. When Auschwitz happened, and when Dresden was bombed, my grandparents would have been mere teenagers!

Long story short: it is not particularly pertinent to ask people to accept things on the grounds that "oh, but: this is the level of carnage that used to be acceptable" - especially not when we went to school and were taught that "this shit was wrong" - only to be asked to now please see it differently, so long as the right sort of people are dying!

2. A lot more importantly ... it does not have to be "unique" for it to be categorically wrong, morally and legally indefensible, and for it to make us all complicit when we say nothing!

A state, that is supposed to be civil and democratic, has killed 10k+ civilians in response to an attack by a proscribed terrorist organizationthat killed about one tenth of that? I think ^thats' what is causing the imbalance of sympathy and it's only going to get worse

Again if you compare to the second world war, Germany lost up to three million civilians whereas the UK lost only 67000.

I think depending on people's view on Israel, they are seeing the bombing of Gaza either as a tit-for-tat revenge attack or as a campaign with a specific objective, and civilian deaths as unintended but unavoidable collatoral.

Why does the "imbalance" of sympathy upset you but the imbalance of victims doesn't? A state, that is supposed to be civil and democratic, has killed 10k+ civilians in response to an attack by a proscribed terrorist organization that killed about one tenth of that? I think ^thats' what is causing the imbalance of sympathy and it's only going to get worse 😢

I do genuinely think that the utter outrage here is that it is Israel carrying out the airstrikes and causing the deaths, and that if this had been a conflict between two majority-Muslim countries or areas in the Middle East it would not be top of the news cycle and attracting huge protests.

Then surely the aim should be elevate all causes not shut down discussion on one. Personally I have seen this happening across social media, people highlighting other causes too which is a really positive thing. What I see on mumsnet though is the opposite. A really nasty why do you even care though attitude. Not a it's great that you care so strongly about injustice, have you heard about x, y or z their cause could really use some support too.

The bombing is absolutely horrible to witness, of course, and it's now done in a world where it can all be filmed and distributed in real time so everyone can see the results of war, which are very hard to stomach.

However it is not true to say that this is some sort of a record, unfortunately since aerial combat became a reality you've got these enormous civilian death tolls. Sixty thousand civilians in France were killed by Allied bombs and that was us aiding them. We killed twenty five thousand in the Dresden firestorm.
The nuclear bombs dropped on Japan killed over a hundred thousand initially with the end result being double that.

And the Allies are celebrated as the heroes, the good guys.

The Vietnam war killed around two million civilians, although that is obviously more controversial, and there have been around three hundred thousand civilians killed in Iraq and a hundred and seventy six thousand in Afghanistan due to the coalition invasions.

In Yemen around twenty thousand civilians have been directly killed by Saudi airstrikes but a further two hundred and twenty seven thousand are estimated dead due to famine.
In Syria, an estimated two hundred and thirty thousand civilians have been killed in the recent conflict.

I could go on here, there have been many more conflicts globally since the end of world war two but you get the picture.

My point I guess is that this is horrible but it is not uniquely awful, there have been many occasions, most notably for our own history the second world war, where civilian deaths have been deemed worth it to achieve an objective by those in power.

I do genuinely think that the utter outrage here is that it is Israel carrying out the airstrikes and causing the deaths, and that if this had been a conflict between two majority-Muslim countries or areas in the Middle East it would not be top of the news cycle and attracting huge protests.

Are you speaking on behalf of the UK government?

Tbh I think you would be best to just report all of the antisemitism that you see rather than to come on and make sweeping statements. Personally, I find it pretty upsetting to be accused of antisemitism because I believe strongly that occupying and starving people is wrong no matter who is doing the occupying and starving. It, to me, feels like a personal attack which isn't allowed on mumsnet. I don't think I should have to feel the need to justify why I feel so strongly about it either.

If you feel that there is an imbalance in views then you are more than welcome to add your views but I don't think personal attacks are they way to get people to hear what you saying.

@Newbutoldfather I'm glad they did, resorting to prejudice invalidates what someone has to say.

I can't speak for everyone, but at least the majority of posters supporting Palestinians do have empathy for Israeli civilians too. I do. However, my concerns are mainly with Gaza at the moment due to the ongoing humanitarian crisis that gets worse by the day. Not only are they in serious danger, they lack the basics to survive and don't know if the hospital in which they are being treated/taking refuge will be bombed at any given moment.

The irony!

Antisemitism is so deeply embedded in society that people truly don’t realise they are doing it. I have been Jewish all my life but I’m only now waking up to the depth of antisemitic feeling. It’s terrifying

Each number was a life, yes a life. Each mattered.

We are not allowed to voice our thoughts on the Israeli government deliberate ethnic cleansing. If we do, we must be anti semitic . Well I am sick of it. I will forever condemn this utter carnage. You will not silence me.

@ChickHenLittle ,

There was one poster on here earlier whom I did report for an obvious antisemitic trope and the moderators quickly deleted it.

However, it is hard to report an imbalance or lack of compassion and empathy, which is what I feel. Most here are well educated (including the poster I reported) and would never consider themselves antisemitic. But a lot of them are, nonetheless.

yes, but you understand they are oppressed by their own government right? Hamas have spent millions+++ on underground infrastructure when they could have built functioning above ground infrastructure!