Anti Semetism IS happening

When you can evidence equivalent responses to Palestinian victims as have been shown by pro-Palestinians to Israeli victims, then you will be at the start of making a case with merit.

But there is no equivalence is there? There have not been large scale marches across the world for Israeli victims. Which is the case you are trying to make us not very honest.

I’m not sure if it’s naivety or dishonesty that causes you to argue that this is the reason why anyone with ‘being the hostages home’ banners at the marches would have been so unwelcome

Ah sorry I thought you were speaking hypothetically. I didn’t realise there actually were such banners at the protests. I was going by what you said in an earlier post about what you would like to see from the marches.

I wasn’t trying to say why the banners would be unwelcome rather why there were none there.

I’m not sure if it’s naivety or dishonesty that causes you to argue that this is the reason why anyone with ‘being the hostages home’ banners at the marches would have been so unwelcome.

I think it’s also worth baring in mind that just as you feel the pro Palestinian protests are evidence that Israeli victims don’t matter some people may feel focus on them implies that Gaza victims doesn’t matter. It’s like people can’t imagine you can feel empathy for both at the same time.

So what did you think the posters and banners of hostages were about?

You said they were to keep the hostages in mind

My point was that the Pro Palestinian marches were actually aimed at the UK governments unequivocal support of Israel (see the nuance there)and so would not have had free the hostages banners because the UK (by which I mean the government) we’re already committed to this.
No reason why they shouldn’t be any though (imo)

So what did you think the posters and banners of hostages were about?

Yes things have become polarized. And I place responsibility for that quite firmly on the appalling and extraordinary response of so many on the pro-Palestinian side, including the way the marches have been conducted as I’ve previously outlined.

The conscious and unconscious anti-Semitism has been blatant. I never expected to see anything like it in the UK. It has been polarizing and it’s the understatement of the century to call that unfortunate.

Or it becomes a shani louk situation.... she has become on here 'that girl that was naked and spat at'. She has a name.
Just putting the human back: why wouldn't we March for them?

I see what you’re saying. I don’t think it’s wrong. The victims of October 7 should be remembered.
But people feel they have to pick a side. Someone on here compared us (people on this board that it) to football hooligans supporters and I must be honest, I can sort of see it.

Excellent post, completely agree with you.

You know the posters and banners of hostages are not about this

I do?

Which appears to be precisely why their presence is so anathema at the marches

As you said things are quite polarised. I very much doubt* banners *urging people to remember the people of Gaza would be welcome at the march against antisemitism that is planned.

@hologramvirus exactly and that's why talking about them individually is important too so they are not seen as a homogeneous (sorry if my spelling is off) lump.
They all have names. And families.
Or it becomes a shani louk situation.... she has become on here 'that girl that was naked and spat at'. She has a name.
Just putting the human back: why wouldn't we March for them?

There would not be much point in appealing to the UK to free the hostages.

You know the posters and banners of hostages are not about this. They are an appeal to humanize the Israeli victims and ensure they are not overlooked or forgotten.

Which appears to be precisely why their presence is so anathema at the marches.

They don’t appear to be a tiny fringe though either.

And the ‘context’ and ‘understanding’ lot of the terrorist murderers seems to be bog standard.

The marches being 'Pro Palestine' and not about peace for all are very polarising. How can people pretend not to see that or understand that.

But now, having seen and heard more of the marches and their supporters, I do think the marches are deliberately partisan and polarising. These marches are solidly for one side and one side only

Thats a fair point although I think some of the more recent marches have* *focused on calling for a ceasefire which seems more neutral.

As I’ve argued before the protests are more against the UK governments stance rather than a direct appeal to the Israelis/Hamas. There would not be much point in appealing to the UK to free the hostages although I absolutely don’t think anyone expressing that view should be chased off. The hostages are civilians themselves and not to blame for the actions of their government.

While I don’t believe the protests themselves are sinister I do see how they are potentially a platform for haters. It would be up to the police to manage that though.

There are plenty of people, people in respectable jobs, academics, commentators, as well as ordinary British citizens who actively celebrated the attacks, ywho think Hamas are freedom fighters and liberators, who tear down hostage posters saying they the hostages are not innocent and they don't care about them

With all due respect that’s not likely to be a majority view though people who antisemitic may well feel emboldened by the current atmosphere.

100 % this

Thing is everyone knows Hamas are terrorists

And this. I am tired of people on here saying this and ' everyone condemns the October 7th attacks'. No. No, they don't. I can't imagine how tiny the bubble is that you have enclosed yourself in if you think this. There are plenty of people, people in respectable jobs, academics, commentators, as well as ordinary British citizens who actively celebrated the attacks, who think Hamas are freedom fighters and liberators, who tear down hostage posters saying they the hostages are not innocent and they don't care about them.
These are the people who feel legitimised and supported and bolstered in their views by the marches.

The marches could have been organised in a way to make sure people with those views knew they were not invited, not welcome. But they are not.

Like it’s a slap in the face to the victims of October 7

Given the speed with which the marches would organised, some on October 8th, I absolutely thought they were a symbolic slap in the face, yes, well more a kick in the stomach, really. To not even pause to hold in mind the October 7th victims. That immediate turning away of faces from the Israeli victims spoke volumes. The fact that so many cannot see the offence in this, speaks volumes.

But now, having seen and heard more of the marches and their supporters, I do think the marches are deliberately partisan and polarising. These marches are solidly for one side and one side only. And people at them are marching alongside people who actively celebrate the attacks. Marching alongside people who tear down hostage posters. Marching alongside people who deny Israelis were victims as ' the oppressed cannot be the oppressor'. Marching alongside those who will absolutely on principle not attend Sundays march against anti-Semitism ( I suspect that is most of the marchers). The more I have seen of this the more I cannot support anyone who knowingly marches alongside this. Because to do so, gives credence to it.

Here is what the marches would have be like for me to support them:
To actively and deliberately hold in mind Israeli victims to and for the speakers to be clear on this.
To encourage those remembering and supporting Israeli victims, with banners to that effect, to attend. So welcoming those with ' Bring back the hostages banners.'
To actively ban anyone encouraging hatred of Israel, anti-Israeli sentiment or anti-Jewish sentiment. So that the focus is on Palestinian lives rather than encouraging more division and hatred.

But they are not like that are they? They are not like that at all.

I'm just not seeing this 'not concerned ' thing. There have been mass marches across the world because people ARE concerned

And I’m not seeing why they’re inherently antisemitic. I know antisemitic people have attended them (and hopefully been arrested) but you seem to believe just the marches themselves are antisemitic in principle. Like it’s a slap in the face to the victims of October 7.

But remember the Palestinians are locked into Gaza , they have had their water and fuel supply’s cut off and they are being bombed pretty much 24/7 and all because a bunch of terrorists were allowed to live among them by the Israeli government because they thought they’d be “useful”.

Neither of these things cancels the other out.

Thing is everyone knows Hamas are terrorists but we are constantly told we should support Israel despite their government (and by extension their policies) bring dodgy as fuck.
If the UK government came out and said that the UK backs Hamas 100% as they did Israel there would be marches I assure you (if not riots)

I'm just not seeing this 'not concerned ' thing. There have been mass marches across the world because people ARE concerned.

Has there been a deliberately brutal and cruel massacre of Palestinians where people said Palestinians brought it on themselves, and most of what was reported probably never happened as Palestinians lie, and lets start marches for the place that the brutalisers came from the day after the brutal attacks, and march alongside those celebrating the attacks of Palestinians, and ripping down posters of Palestinians who have been brutalised? Has that happened? In the UK? Has it?

People have been advocating for Palestinians, with good cause, for a long time.

People should care about victims, wherever they come from. But its pretty clear to me that Israeli-jewish victims are not being treated as equal to Palestinians here.

@bness she said she was on the wrong thread?

I read it as a continuation of the fact that people are insisting they are prisoners, implying crime, versus innocent hostages, and the legal system that allows Israel to detain prisoners at will including choosing what to do with their bodies

that was not the same thing

What wasn’t sorry

Yes both 'sides' are guilty of this

We are all born the same. Everything else is a social construct.

I was giving her the benefit of the doubt, but this whole skin thing is making me second-guess if that was the right thing to do

Bit random admittedly