Anti Semetism IS happening

For me it’s not about the fact they are fighting back, but the way they are fighting back which appals me. I’m appalled by the fact borders have been closed so that nobody can evacuate; in Ukraine women and children were supported to evacuate and given refugee status in other countries, that isn’t happening in Gaza where almost nobody can leave with the exception of some dual-passport holders and severely injured people. And even foreign nationals weren’t able to start evacuating until 3 weeks into the conflict.

The amount of aid being let into the country is being hugely restricted so that significantly less aid is now entering the strip daily now that it is war zone than was entering prior to October 7th. Hospitals are without power and other basic resources which means they cannot effectively and humanely treat the injured casualties. Over half of the strip’s citizens have been displaced and people don’t have enough food or power. I’m appalled at the electricity and communications blackouts which mean ordinary people can’t contact family.

I’m appalled by the use of illegal weapons such as white phosperous and the bombing in and around UNWRA schools, hospitals, refugee camps, water tanks etc. I’m appalled Israel have been bombing the roads that could be used by civilians to flee from the north to the south and essentially making travel difficult and unsafe so that civilians are trapped. I’m appalled that they are indiscriminately bombing civilian areas and seemingly thinking the loss of countless civilians is worth it if at least a few of the terrorists are also killed. 67% of those killed are women and children so even if we assumed every single adult male casualty is a Hamas terrorist that means 2 innocent civilians are being killed in order to catch each member of hamas. Is that price really worth it? And in reality of course the number of civilians lost for each Hamas member will be higher as not every adult male is a member of Hamas.

I think it is understandable that Israel are retaliating and that they intend to wipe out Hamas, but I think that they should still be following the international laws with regard to war, I think they should be trying to minimise civilian casualties and that retaliation does not need to mean a month of heavy bombing to a nation where civilians have no escape and where literally nowhere is safe. A ceasefire does not have to be synonymous with Israel just walking away and leaving Hamas to do what they want but this level of attack appears to be more about collective punishment on all of Gaza With no regard for the safety or welfare or civilians rather than specifically about targeting and wiping out Hamas.

It’s very sad and alarming. I think stopping protests as in France would be difficult here. But there have been some arrests.

A lot of it is hard to police, it’s on SM, it’s on mn, it’s in every day lives for people. There’s another thread where a Jewish poster on the underground was told to go home to Israel

I am horrified at the antisemitism that has (it seems) suddenly boiled up around this country and worldwide. It's like you said it has always been lurking "under the surface" all the time. I am baffled that it is not being seriously addressed by our police force or government.

Next Sunday we remember all our armed forces and civilians who died in wars, including WWII. We remember fighting the naz1s who targeted Jews for persecution. Now I see exactly how we got there. Its chilling.

Eh?

I'm talking about civilians dying in wars.

Of course Israel is going to kill civilians in Gaza, it's inevitable given the circumstances, but they aren't deliberately targeting them, unlike Hamas.

Allies killed many civilians in WW2 but it wasn't genocide. Germans exterminating Jews systematically was. The difference is really clear.

I wouldn't go on the marches because I wouldn't feel safe. I do have many friends who are marching, and I don't think they are antisemitic. I think the majority of the marchers are probably not antisemitic. But I do wonder about their ability to identify and call out the antisemitism that is undoubtedly there.

I think there's a cultural blindness to antisemitism, similar to the vast numbers of men who don't 'see' everyday sexism. Whatever you think about David Baddiel,it is worth reading his book to gain some understanding of this. Also 'People love dead Jews' by Dara Horn.

As if this crisis were not depressing enough, the sheer numbers of people who have the luxury of using it to close their minds further and enjoy some tribal posturing, whataboutery and ignorance elevated as piety is bringing me to despair.

Other than 'occupation', which I take issue with, yes of course I am.

Are you appalled by Israel's occupation, their persistent documented human rights violations and illegal settlements that contravene internal law?

@quantumbutterfly Pakistan was created after the mess the British made in India dividing a country and turning the people against one another. Prior to that Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists and Christians lived alongside one another in India. Us Brits have cause a mess across the world and glorify it as part of our history. In some parts of the world such as the Islands of Trinidad, Guyana etc the Indians who migrated prior to partition still enjoy a really multicultural community. Interfaith marriages between Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists and Christians are incredibly common.

Not comparable at all. If Germany had kept GB under years of occupation, siege, murder, rape, demolition of homes, confiscation of land etc and then bombed 2m people it would most definitely have been a genocide.

I'm utterly appalled at what Hamas did as well, but why are you appalled at Israel for fighting back? Genuine question?

How exactly do you expect them to fight back without inadvertantly creating civilian casualties in an area like Gaza?

Unless you think that due to the presence of civilians and their deliberate use as human shields, Hamas should have complete amnesty to continue raping and murdering from now until the end of time?

It's not a Muslim 'homeland', as Muslims are not automatically entitled to live there because their grandmother was a Muslim. They were both created by partition due to internal conflict. So not comparable at all.

I’m aware it’s not the only conflict where land has been drawn on religious boundaries, I recognise that if you look at history what has happened with regards to Israel/ Palestine is not necessarilly unique. The countries you mention did not arise without conflict either and there is for example ongoing conflict in Kashmir regarding whether it should belong to India or Pakistan.

I also agree that Israel exists and that a solution needs to be made from where we are now, regardless of whether people, in hindsight, agree with the creation of Israel.

That doesn’t mean I don’t think some aspects of Zionism are extremist or that some Israelis don’t hold extremist views regarding their ‘right’ to land, especially with regards to the Israeli settlers in the West Bank. A 2-state solution will include challenging the extremist views on both ‘sides’, there absolutely needs to be an end to jihad against Israel but there also needs to be an end to extremist Zionist views with regards to which areas of land they do and don’t have a ‘right’ to settle on based on their ideas of Israel being their homeland.

There is nothing complex about a 'civil' State killing more than 10k people (majority of whom are civilians)

How many German civilians do you think Britain killed in WW2? It was over 2M.

Does that make Britain genocidal in WW2?

Maybe you might consider that wars and civilian casualties are more complex than you think?

Israel is not the only religious 'homeland', Pakistan was created with great bloodshed as an Islamic homeland, Bangladesh too I believe
It exists now and we move forward from where we are. A 2 state solution and an end to jihad against Israel.

The video linked on here of the response to an MSP showed the aggression from many

I haven’t watched the one below with the man with sign attacked but I’m not surprised

I don't think the marchers are marching for peace. Alot of them look incredibly aggressive and carrying inflammatory signs. Such a contrast to the vigil for the hostages a few weeks ago which was quiet and respectful.

The media and posters on here are calling them Pro Palestine marches. Stop the War Coalition, Trade Unions and other actual organizers are not referring to them as that. I attended one a few days ago that was called Stop the Genocide. And it's just awful that even "Pro-Palestine" is being regarded as such a derogatory term.

Agree.
I read a comment under the mail article linked above...hard times bring strong leaders, strong leaders bring good times, good times bring weak leaders, weak leaders bring hard times.rinse and repeat. Strong is such a subjective value.

Comments sections like Mumsnet are vox pop. Like trying to make sense of the world through the compound eyes of a fly, but a general picture emerges.

The marches are called Pro-Palestinian protests. That’s not calling for peace. They are chanting about freeing Palestine. That involves a two state resolution. So why not call it an end the war protest. Or a Peace march. But they’re not called that and they aren’t asking for that. They are marching against the dreadful price Palestinians are paying at the hands of extremists in Israel and Palestine. Call them that and march for that. That’s fair enough. But these marches are not calling for peace.

It's entirely your perogative to attend or not. My eyes are just exhausted from rolling at the posters who conflate anyone who cares about the human rights situation in Palestine as (and yes I've seen all of these labels) :

antisemitic
Jew haters
Pro Hamas
Obsessed with Palestinians
Ignorant
Failing to understand complexity of situation
Sixth former activists
Blue haired lefty

I'm sure I've missed out on a lot,these are the ones I can remember off the top of my head.
There is nothing complex about a 'civil' State killing more than 10k people (majority of whom are civilians) in response to a terrorist attack, with more than one third being children. Especially when that state has been historically killing them.

I would never attend an event where there was any call for antisemitism, and the people I know wouldn't either. I see the above labels now as nothing other than a deflective hasbara, and it not only attempts to reduce the lives of the Palestinians to worthlessness, but also positions those who care as being hateful ignoramus' who are just using this conflict as an outlet for their antisemitic feelings.

I think it’s extremist because it assumes people have a right to land based solely on religion. It assumes that people can emigrate from around the world and automatically have a right to settle in that country based on their religion, even if they have no recent ancestors in that country, and push non-Jewish people who have lived in those areas for generations out of their homes. It assumes that religion is a good enough reason to expel people who are not part of that religion out of homes they had owned for centuries on the basis of it being someone else’s ‘homeland.’ It assumes a religious superiority, where people from one group have a ‘right’ to live in a country or area based on religion regardless of whether they have any ancestral history in that land. It is extremist because it assumes that the non-Jewish people who were living in Israel previously did not have a right to a homeland and could be expelled to make way for others based solely on religion. I think any view which assumes people have a right to land based on religion, and have the right to expel others from a land based on them not belonging to that religion, is extremist.

To add, I would think the same if it was Christians, Muslims, Sikhs or any other religion seeking to establish a homeland in a country by pushing those who were already living there out. I think people from all religions deserve the right to love in peace, but I don’t think they have a divine right to any areas of land based on their religious history alone.

@Cropcycle what you say at the end is what the people marching want - for the key players to stop bombing innocent civilians and to discuss a way forward.

It's only the Jewish posters on here, who don't seem to have even attended any of said events, who insist this is all about Jewish people

I wouldn’t attend a march. To protest you need to understand the complexities of a conflict. And this is incredibly complex. I struggle to grasp. The state of Israel was doomed to internecine conflict at its inception by the foreign powers who were the signatories of various mandates and treaties. Netanyahu has worked against peace and taken his eye off the ball as Hamas increases in strength and anger. He wants Palestines land . Hamas want all Jewish people annihilated and has vowed to do that.

Getting to the truth is almost impossible. To march for peace is 5 year old stuff. They are marches to show how appalling the situation is. And that’s fair enough. But until you have an Israeli government and a Palestinian head of state who are prepared to sit round a table and not make their civilians pay the ultimate price for their intransigence any chance of peace is a distant dream.

A march for peace and calling for a ceasefire is a naive, meaningless venting of hate and anger that causes further division and racism. Israel can’t just let Hamas carry on as they are. They embed their fighters in and under hospitals, schools, apartment blocks. They siphon off aid and fuel, sent to help their desperate civilians. They have no regard for human life. Israel under Netanyahu has no appetite for peace either. Both sides have extremists at their helm and both have world powers by their sides, with vested interests in keeping this war going. A march calling for stopping the war and negotiations by the key protagonists. That I would attend.

I am appalled by what Hamas did. I am equally appalled by what Israel is now doing.

@backtowinter Our government is a lot more complicit in the Israel-Gaza conflict, like it was in the Iraq war. Hence why the marches across the UK. The situation in Yemen, Myanmar, Uyghurs in China etc - the UK wields very little influence in these conflicts/injustices otherwise I'm sure we would be speaking up about them even more - not that there hasn't been outrage over these conflicts/injustices.