"You don’t need to share your views on Gaza"

@MCOut

Many of the users trying to shut down debate on this thread are also spreading whataboutery on other threads and trying to shut down debate with smears and sowing propaganda and doubt against every single thing critical of the Israeli govt. So it figures they would also try to do it on this thread in whichever way suits them.

This illustrates my point I think. Okay, what you say might have merit, yes you should be aware of your sources and yes context is important. However, why is a Chinese platform inherently untrustworthy?

Information filtered via Westerner does not mean it’s devoid of political considerations. For all that freedom of press is supposed to a respected concept, the US felt it was appropriate to flex it’s power and try to silence a foreign news outlet.

Not sure whether it was via TikTok but the pictures of girls broken and bloodied bodies and families holding each other pleading with Hamas and explaining to one child that yes his sister was dead was unedited, from Hamas and immediate on 8th October and that’s what radicalised me. There is no context that can explain away an anally raped woman being dragged into a jeep.

We must be able to discuss, it helps us all to learn.

agree with pps, trying to silence opinions is akin to censorship, and a distraction technique.

So no need for experts then?!

You do realise that what you see on TikTok doesn’t give much in the way of context or history don’t you? And without those things it’s all pretty meaningless??

Here’s some nuance. Until 8th October Israel/ Palestine was an imponderable to me. I didn’t feel equipped to judge. On the one hand a homeland for a people who had lost 6 million, on the other, displaced refugees, right wing Israeli heavy handed soldiers. Muslims are also more visible in London and I like their observance and my friends. I’d also bought into the be kind and am in general a big defender of faith. What that meant was that I didn’t interrogate what Hamas wants. They want to kill all Jews. All non believers. What they believe is distorted from but has its origins in the Koran and that has to be called out.

I disagree OP. Conversation is part of how everybody learns, the only difference is that these conversations are now more accessible. There is a problem with how social media has been used but it’s still fairly new. All communication channels have had problems but hopefully as usage evolves these platforms will change in ways which combat disinformation.

The problem I have with his article is that it assumes the news has been impartial. Personally, I don’t think this has ever been true. News that has been seen as credible has typically been written by people who come from a particular demographic, in a very eurocentric way, that reflects core western values. Even if it doesn’t provide a moral judgement, it very often encourages one. Re, his point about debasing tragedy, personally I feel that professional publications do this too, they just attempt to be subtle about it, and that’s assuming the writer recognises it at all.

Opinion drives debate and debate has always been the cornerstone of this political system, but now the participants have diversified and suddenly opinion is bad. To me, it is very clear who benefits from this point of view.

MN would be a ghost town with tumbleweed if people had to be properly qualified before voicing an opinion. Let people argue and try to fumble towards some sort of truth. Better to be curious and try to formulate a stance than to be indifferent or decide to leave it to the 'experts'.

But I think that on a lot of the current conflict it would be some welcome if [...] for example, "I can't say I have always understood conflict in the ME but I have family in Tel Aviv / Gaza City and the impression I get is...". Just - nuance, you know?

This, I actually agree with to an extent!

But, as already stated, I think the alternative might be worse, because the alternative would arguably consist of some sort of "gatekeeping the public voicing of opinions", which I suspect is inherently damaging to our democracy.

I fully agree with "nuance would be great", though - and I find nuanced opinions, including those that I vehemently disagree with - personally a lot more helpful.

Forming your opinion on TikTok is really nothing to be proud of. It's a Chinese website with zero moderation, designed to foment discord in the West.

And it’s exactly that thinking which allowed the Nazis to rise and segregation to be approved and slavery to thrive.
We can’t not speak.

I disagree, actually! I mean: you certainly do not have to - but if you want to share your views, you are super welcome to do so!

Look, I used to work for an Israeli-owned company. I was married to a Palestinian man for over a decade. I have a degree in International Studies, a 20+ year history of personal and activist history around the conflict and the material luxury of subscriptions to a wide variety of serious news media in a variety of languages I can actually read. As such, I am not a professional expert - but I am deeply familiar not only with the history of the conflict but also its core narratives from a variety of perspectives.

As such, I find a lot of what I hear and read from people "reasonably uninformed" - that includes a lot of the opinions with whose sentiments I broadly agree on substance/sentiment (but not on correctness of detail).

But, let people share their opinions if they want, though!

There are topics of importance in which I am a lot less well versed than this one. For example, I know a lot less about global warming than I do about this. It is still a subject that I feel is important and have opinions on and will express my opinions about at times.

And not only do I think this is right - I think it may actually be important! Members of the broader public being involved in the public discourse and, directly or indirectly, in decision making - even if we may not have deep expertise - on a wide variety of topics ... we have a word for that, and that word is "democracy". Democracy is neither just "ceremonially sanctioned technocracy" (as in: the experts speak and voters endorse favoured experts), nor is it "tyranny of the majority" - at least, so-called liberal democracy is not, or at least not meant to be. Participation in public discourse on important subjects is a core component of a well-functioning democracy. And since we cannot all be experts on everything, this - by necessity - includes that of the semi- or even uninformed!

Not only does our system need to be robust enough to cope with this - it may well be less robust if it did not have to!

And it’s exactly that thinking which allowed the Nazis to rise and segregation to be approved and slavery to thrive.
We can’t not speak.
Cant edit- this doesn’t make sense without what it was responding to…

The hospital attack is a good example, yes of people posting too fast. There was a since deleted post here within minutes saying Israel kills 1000 in hospital attack. I knew it was unverified, I knew it’d be Hamas misfire- the photos even at the time were of a car park with a small crater.
Re moral virtue in posting here and on other SM too fucking right I’m going to post.
Defiantly so.
•I want Jewish posters to see the antisemitism challenged.
•I want to challenge my young relatives who have jumped on the pro Palestine/ champion the underdog bandwagon with the same lack of critical thinking as they apply to gender woo.

I’d be very concerned if people didn’t think about and form opinions about all the things you mentioned, or about the current conflict. It’s the broadcasting of sometimes ill-informed opinions which I think is harmful
I disagree.
I suspect that the only reason some world leaders have started to whisper about humanitarian needs and proportionality in the conflict is because global citizens like Average Joe are expressing their horror at the situation.

If someone is being completely ignorant and hasn't got a grip on facts, they can be challenged. Suggesting they shouldn't express their opinion because you consider their stance on a moral issue to be wrong is a problem.

The danger of policing which people are allowed to express their personal views on a topic is that someone on high will start making decisions over who is censored and who isn't.

There's already a worrying number of people who seem to think that the race/religious beliefs/ethnicity of civilians makes their lives more disposable. If that's taken further into the realm of free speech and opinion policing then there's grave consequence eg. Who decides what the criteria are, only right-think allowed?

Brace yourself @TheWayTheLightFalls the hospital bombing, IDF or one of the official channels posts a pic of misfired missile, one of the nerds I follow goes, WTF seen that footage before. Said footage turns out to be from Oct 2022. Post is retracted.
If we all just sat back, the lies would penetrate deeply.
It probably was a misfired Hamas missile, but provide the correct truth.
We need nerds to point out when the truth changes.

I'm astonished that your average person thinks that they know enough to have an opinion on this. I certainly don't know enough. There have been hideous atrocities committed by both sides and there is nearly a century of recent history behind this, not to mention the ancient history.

People have freedom of speech in the UK. That is nost the case in the dreadful regimes who want to eradicate Israel. Hamas terrorists invaded and now there is war. Lots of innocent people die in wars. Hamas knew it would come to this - they chose what is now happening. The sooner Hamas is destroyed the better and the sooner all Palestinians accept the state of Israel the better as Israel is not going away and nor is US/UK support for Israel.

Of course opinions against evil have to be shared. There’s no moral virtue in knowing something is wrong and not acting on it. Quite the opposite.

(I can’t read the article as behind a paywall so sorry in advance if I’ve missed the point)

People have always had opinions and been very certain their opinion is correct. This is not a new thing. It helps if they’re informed opinions of course but tbh even a degree in Middle Eastern studies will only get you so far if you don’t live there.

I think as far as, discussion on this board goes, most people assume they won’t be listened so get belligerent and everyone else is doing the same. So it’s mostly bun fights. I think we’re all fairly sane /of average intelligence underneath all the bluster though.