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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

gaza tunnel system

531 replies

Noicant · 28/10/2023 19:11

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/28/us/politics/gazas-tunnels-israel-ground-war.html

I thought this was an interesting article about Gaza’s systems of tunnels which would help explain what the IDF are trying to get at.

OP posts:
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27
Desertrose2023 · 02/11/2023 11:04

Stomacharmeleon · 02/11/2023 10:54

Absolutely wars have rules so I would ask you why....
Hamas would put their top leader under a refugee camp and hostages which then make the camp a legitimate target.
Why have a mass of tunnels under the most vulnerable areas your citizens?

Don't seem very keen to play by the rules do they?

more deflection.

the laws of war apply to both parties. If Hamas does not comply that does not mean Israel is entitled to follow suit. If anything, Israel has a greater responsibility to abide given that it is a state actor with one of the most well funded armies on earth whose arsenal and military capabilities far exceed Hamas including in terms of defense and precision.

Stomacharmeleon · 02/11/2023 10:54

Absolutely wars have rules so I would ask you why....
Hamas would put their top leader under a refugee camp and hostages which then make the camp a legitimate target.
Why have a mass of tunnels under the most vulnerable areas your citizens?

Don't seem very keen to play by the rules do they?

25milesfromhome · 02/11/2023 10:45

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ProvincialLady1 · 02/11/2023 10:38

Dinkydaisy1 · 02/11/2023 09:42

Agree. Amazing that someone in a prominent organisation was able to speak up about the reality of Israel and not just shelve morals and humanity into back pocket.

Show quote history

I just think it's useful when people show they want the only Jewish nation on the planet to stop existing, because I know not to interact further or take anything they say at face value.

Desertrose2023 · 02/11/2023 10:37

blankeyblank · 02/11/2023 06:10

I think you need to get a reality check about war.

Anyone who tells you they can wage a war without civilian casualties is either naive, stupid or a liar.

The minute any regime/country/aggressor puts munitions, staff, leaders, operatives or any part of their War Machine covertly or visibly under/beside/above civilians, then that area becomes a legitimate military target.

And Israel didn't just kill 1 Hamas Commander, they destroyed a large section of the tunnel network (that's why the crater was so big, the whole lot just collapsed in on itself) and probably other parts of Hamas' infrastructure that they aren't revealing.

Do you really believe Israel chooses to drop bombs costing £1,00,000s just because they like seeing a firework display? These guided munitions are programmed to hit a target at particular co-ordinates based on intelligence.

It's easy to be an armchair critic.

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“The minute any regime/country/aggressor puts munitions, staff, leaders, operatives or any part of their War Machine covertly or visibly under/beside/above civilians, then that area becomes a legitimate military target.”

what you and many others don’t seem to want to accept is that wars have rules. These rules were written after the horrors of world war 2, when the world said never again. It’s not a free for all because Israel wants to achieve a specific military objective.

Dinkydaisy1 · 02/11/2023 09:42

ProvincialLady1 · 02/11/2023 09:27

Yes, it's pretty shocking that someone who describes Israel as a 'European, ethno-nationalist settler colonial project' held a prominent position within the UN. It's good to bring these things into the light.

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Agree. Amazing that someone in a prominent organisation was able to speak up about the reality of Israel and not just shelve morals and humanity into back pocket.

Dinkydaisy1 · 02/11/2023 09:38

blankeyblank · 02/11/2023 09:01

And this is also a good read.

'Member States Fail to Adopt Amendment Condemning 7 October Terrorist Attacks by Hamas in Israel'

That is outrageous ^ and shows that the UN is no longer fit for purpose. Israel has every right to be aggrieved.

https://press.un.org/en/2023/ga12548.doc.htm

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You're right, UN is not fit for purpose. It should have been able to stop Israels apartheid, Human rights violations, indiscriminate and illegal land grab and genocide ages ago.

ProvincialLady1 · 02/11/2023 09:27

Dinkydaisy1 · 02/11/2023 08:42

UN Human Rights director resignation letter is a good read.

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Yes, it's pretty shocking that someone who describes Israel as a 'European, ethno-nationalist settler colonial project' held a prominent position within the UN. It's good to bring these things into the light.

blankeyblank · 02/11/2023 09:01

Dinkydaisy1 · 02/11/2023 08:42

UN Human Rights director resignation letter is a good read.

Show quote history

And this is also a good read.

'Member States Fail to Adopt Amendment Condemning 7 October Terrorist Attacks by Hamas in Israel'

That is outrageous ^ and shows that the UN is no longer fit for purpose. Israel has every right to be aggrieved.

https://press.un.org/en/2023/ga12548.doc.htm

Dinkydaisy1 · 02/11/2023 08:43

Noicant · 02/11/2023 05:53

Honestly, I’m not shocked at most of what Hamas does but lack of shame around taking no responsibility for their own people was shocking. The complete disregard for their own people is just astounding and it’s said in such an offhand dismissive way.

They tax Gazans for god sake, they were elected by them yet they think the UN or Israel have more responsibility for the Gazan people than they do. Whats the point of putting out casualty figures if you don’t actually care about them. May as well shrug your shoulders and say “fuck knows how many died, we don’t really care anyway”.

It is psychopathic, you have to be a psychopath to be able to say this without squirming.

And you have to be able to say Israel is openly committing genocide without squirming.

Dinkydaisy1 · 02/11/2023 08:42

blankeyblank · 02/11/2023 05:43

@Dinkydaisy1 "Here, our governments and media are actively promoting genocide,"

Will you just stop posting ignorant, emotional, inaccurate, rubbish?

No Western government is promoting 'genocide'.

UN Human Rights director resignation letter is a good read.

gaza tunnel system
blankeyblank · 02/11/2023 06:10

Desertrose2023 · 02/11/2023 03:56

I’m not here to rationalize the actions or strategy of Hamas.
What I do know is that dropping 6 tonnes of explosive bombs on a refugee camp killing 500 people in order to get to 1 Hamas commander, isn’t what a country that cares about the lives of innocent civilians, including the lives of its own hostages, would do. It is barbaric.

Edited
Show quote history

I think you need to get a reality check about war.

Anyone who tells you they can wage a war without civilian casualties is either naive, stupid or a liar.

The minute any regime/country/aggressor puts munitions, staff, leaders, operatives or any part of their War Machine covertly or visibly under/beside/above civilians, then that area becomes a legitimate military target.

And Israel didn't just kill 1 Hamas Commander, they destroyed a large section of the tunnel network (that's why the crater was so big, the whole lot just collapsed in on itself) and probably other parts of Hamas' infrastructure that they aren't revealing.

Do you really believe Israel chooses to drop bombs costing £1,00,000s just because they like seeing a firework display? These guided munitions are programmed to hit a target at particular co-ordinates based on intelligence.

It's easy to be an armchair critic.

Original poster
Noicant · 02/11/2023 05:53

Honestly, I’m not shocked at most of what Hamas does but lack of shame around taking no responsibility for their own people was shocking. The complete disregard for their own people is just astounding and it’s said in such an offhand dismissive way.

They tax Gazans for god sake, they were elected by them yet they think the UN or Israel have more responsibility for the Gazan people than they do. Whats the point of putting out casualty figures if you don’t actually care about them. May as well shrug your shoulders and say “fuck knows how many died, we don’t really care anyway”.

It is psychopathic, you have to be a psychopath to be able to say this without squirming.

OP posts:
OP posts:
blankeyblank · 02/11/2023 05:43

@Dinkydaisy1 "Here, our governments and media are actively promoting genocide,"

Will you just stop posting ignorant, emotional, inaccurate, rubbish?

No Western government is promoting 'genocide'.

OP posts:
Original poster
Noicant · 02/11/2023 05:31

https://www.understandingwar.org/

This is a good resource for understanding where everyone is. It also provides updates on Russia/Ukraine conflict. It’s completely neutral as a site. It does short updates on combatant movements etc.

Institute for the Study of War

https://www.understandingwar.org/

OP posts:
Desertrose2023 · 02/11/2023 03:56

Stomacharmeleon · 01/11/2023 20:29

@Desertrose2023 why would Hamas put hostages under a refugee camp full of people? What did they think the direct result would be? By confirming they were there Hamas has confirmed they are using their people as human shields and build tunnels under camps.

I’m not here to rationalize the actions or strategy of Hamas.
What I do know is that dropping 6 tonnes of explosive bombs on a refugee camp killing 500 people in order to get to 1 Hamas commander, isn’t what a country that cares about the lives of innocent civilians, including the lives of its own hostages, would do. It is barbaric.

Desertrose2023 · 02/11/2023 03:48

OhHelloTheres · 01/11/2023 19:39

@Desertrose2023
You keep going on about how many more Palestinians have been killed than Israelis. I agree, the number of casualties in Gaza is much higher than in Israel. I am not ok with how many families are being torn apart.

If we include all the attempted murders though from Hamas, I think you'll find it's not so imbalanced. How many rockets have they fired now this past month? These rockets aren't fireworks - their purpose is to kill and maim. The Iron Dome has saved thousands of lives. That's the only reason there aren't more dead Israelis. The only reason.

Right, so when determining balance we’re comparing people who could have been potentially killed with those who actually have been killed? If that’s the logic you’re using to rationalize the disproportionately of Israel’s actions then God help us.

Desertrose2023 · 02/11/2023 03:45

25milesfromhome · 01/11/2023 19:28

Two posters from a homogenous group of people, you can't have a homogenous group of two people, don’t be silly.

I was being sarcastic but clearly you didn’t get that. move on, I won’t be engaging with you again.

Ohdearanotheryear · 01/11/2023 23:16

Trulywonderful · 01/11/2023 16:40

Media are picking up what he said now:

Hamas leader dismisses Gaza civilian deaths as 'a necessary price in blood' and boasts that the terror group has 'demonstrated that Israel is beatable… we are changing the Middle East'

Ghazi Hamad, deputy foreign minister for Hamas boasted their slaughter of 1,400 Israelis inside their homes or as they fled a festival 'destroyed the myth of Israel as a military superpower'.

Evil.

Ohdearanotheryear · 01/11/2023 23:09

Stomacharmeleon · 01/11/2023 15:27

www.instagram.com/reel/CzG4Ctetxhq/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Oh even Hamas call it an annihilation....

Any ceasefire would only be on Israels side. This Hamas terrorist confirms that. People calling for a ceasefire will never get Hamas to agree to stop.

Trulywonderful · 01/11/2023 23:07

Stomacharmeleon · 01/11/2023 20:32

@OhHelloTheres they will be along soon to say it's unfair that Israel has the dome, bomb shelters and military capability.
Completely negating the fact Hamas has had billions of aid and tunnels at its disposal and just doesn't care about the Gazan's enough to do the same.

Oh that has already been said today on this thread or another one, I can't remember which but it was said

Stomacharmeleon · 01/11/2023 20:32

@OhHelloTheres they will be along soon to say it's unfair that Israel has the dome, bomb shelters and military capability.
Completely negating the fact Hamas has had billions of aid and tunnels at its disposal and just doesn't care about the Gazan's enough to do the same.

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