gaza tunnel system

@Silence1 my 'cold hard narrative' is factual as that is what has happened. I don't know about the men there I just think it's a shame they would share their quite obvious huge network of tunnels with the civilian population .

@Ohdearanotheryear and @Stomacharmeleon The man interviewed by the BBC was working at the hospital when his children at home were killed by the Israelis. His wife at home with the children was seriously injured. Doesn't fit with your cold hearted narrative. Go and watch it.

@Ohdearanotheryear of course they don't care. That's why they put the hostages under a refugee camp..... they are either playing chicken with Israel or deliberately putting their people in harms way.

We keep seeing pictures of men saying their children are dead when a building was bombed. The men are often ok the women and children are not. Someone on a thread said most of the deceased are children. I realise that 50% of thd population are children but are the men sheltering in the tunnels whilst the children and women are above ground. It makes no sense. Surely with an extensive underground network you keep your children safe? It feels like the Hamas terrorists don't actually care.

I know you weren't addressing me @Desertrose2023, but in the spirit of being more conciliatory, I wanted to reply. Although I do support Israel's right to defend themselves, and I'm still heartbroken tbh at the details emerging about the 7th October, I really can't bear the idea they're cutting off water and food and don't really see how it achieves anything, given Hamas operatives probably have their own large stockpiles and no intention of sharing them. I absolutely support getting aid in as much as possible as well, but I can see the need to be cautious about what else might be brought through.

@Desertrose2023 I do think they are justified yes. And I don't think they have any choice.
And in 17 years of Israel not being in Gaza Hamas hasn't managed to direct any of the billions in aid into sorting out fuel, water and sanitation and food. Nothing.
They have relied on Israel.
Which is fine if you then don't break a ceasefire and rape and pillage.
There are devastating consequences of this I agree for both sides and I hope there is a pause to allow aid in. But I think a joint ceasefire is unrealistic and would be catastrophic for Israel.
Blame is more nuanced. I think both sides inevitably will pay a huge price and have to answer to their own people.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/have-war-crimes-been-committed-in-israel-and-gaza-and-what-international-laws-apply

Interesting article on war crimes - both Israel and Hamas are as bad as each other.

Genuine question, regardless of the behaviour of Hamas, do you really believe Israel’s actions are justifiable? cutting off water, electricity, fuel, food, internet, the heavy bombing etc.,
is your view honestly that Israel cannot bear any responsibility or blame for the devastating consequences these actions are having practically on 2.3 million people?

@EasterIssland I really can't see what your getting at.
I read it that rules of war aren't always respected and they have been in place a long time.
If we are expecting all concerned to respect the rules of war perhaps we can start with the treatment of Shani Louk. Not a soldier. The positioning of hostages under a refugee camp.

Enter the whataboutery.....

So you’re saying that international rules to avoid killing innocent people are ok not to be followed because they weren’t 80 years ago 🤦🏻‍♀️

There were rules of war in WWII by the way. Japan did not always follow them which was terrible. The Geneva Convention applied. Both the UK and Germany largely respected those rules and how prisoners of war were handled.

Terrorists like Hamas however have absolutely no interest in following rules and do not care if their people die whom they just regard as cannon fodder. Hamas knew exactly what it was doing when it chose to invade Israel.

Getting huffy about respectful debate is a bit rich coming from someone who told another poster they “sound deranged” for discussing their family's experience of oppression and trauma. Is there anyone left on this thread that you are actually still talking to?

@Hellers I agree, the whole situation is so very far from right. Hopefully, all the parties involved will be held to account for their appalling actions, both Israeli government and terrorist groups, and more reasonable heads can prevail in the future.

Edited for a missing word.

I have provided resources to back up the relevant use of all of those terms.

on apartheid- I’ve linked the reports of amnesty international, human rights watch and Bt’selem.

on genocide - I’ve referenced statements from UN officials supporting this allegation. In additional to hateful rhetoric from the Israeli government.

on war crimes - again myself and other posters have provided references to support this. This is an allegation many are making against Israel.

the illegal occupation is a factual reality. Go look up the million UN resolutions on this.

I’m sorry if these terms are not comfortable for you, but their constant use is perfectly legitimate in the context of all and any conversations relating to Israel’s actions in Palestine and its treatment of the Palestinian people. Past and present.

and I could throw your argument right back at you in terms of the repetitive responses I’ve received by some of the posters on these threads, including false and frankly disgusting allegations re antisemitism.

Finally, if you disagree with me that’s fine, but I’m not communicating further with someone not prepared to engage respectfully.

You can shout 'deflection !' as loud as you like, it's still a valid question.

While you're at it, see if you can include 'genocide', apartheid state', 'war crimes',
'whataboutery', illegal occupation' and 'land grab' in your next answer.

5 points for each and 'Ethnic cleansing' is your starter for 10, 🙄

Well it seems Hamas didn't get that memo.

"It’s not a free for all because Israel wants to achieve a specific military objective"

That's a ridiculous statement.

If Israel wanted a 'free for all' they'd have nuked Gaza City and had done with it.

It's simply amazing but not surprising that on none of the demos do any protestors call for Hamas to use some of their billions for sheltering their people. Nor do they seem to protest what the Hamas leaders are saying about their lack of care for Gazan people.

When called out so many posters on MN don't decry it either and it makes me wonder if they really care at all about people in Gaza.

Thanks for the answers. I am so sorry for the people having to live there under attack and with no basic protection. That's not right.

@Hellers their civilians are not a priority to Hamas whether it's protecting them or feeding and watering them.

@Hellers yes, there are no civilian bomb shelters, Hamas have specified that the tunnels are for Hamas soldiers and operations.

@Desertrose2023 why is it deflection they are honest questions...

Also what you are doing is the same. Israel is more responsible because it has better military capability and precision?
Israel made it clear it was going after Hamas three weeks ago. And Hamas has responded by putting its people in harms way and targets by using the tunnels directly below a refugee camp. Hiding the things Israel prizes the most under a camp.

So I hold Hamas responsible for the genocide of its own people. They are happy to martyr them for the greater good.

Yes @Hellers , that's pretty much the gist , hamas have said it's not thier job to protect the citizens of Gaza , it's the job of Israel and the un .

Sorry to derail this a bit - so there's a network of tunnels in Gaza used by Hamas but there are no civilian bomb shelters, am I right? It doesn't seem to me like they exist, yet the place has been under attack for years.

I don’t understand why you reported my last post- you said to me, a Jewish person- Glad you think genocide is so entertaining. Please continue.
I do not find genocide entertaining. At all. You are all over the place telling people they’re “genocide apologists”. I’m not accusing you of anything you haven’t said yourself. But let’s move on!

Yes, this. The total detachment from reality of the Hamas spokesmen when they speak of their expectations and willingness to sacrifice so many innocent lives and their callous dismissal of so much suffering.

As we were discussing earlier, all that innovation, all that money, all that purpose and this is what Hamas chose to do to Gaza. But apparently, it’s not their fault. All those agencies who’ve stood by for years without loudly condemning Hamas’s activities and extortion are also complicit in the Gazan’s misery.

The article about potential Hezbollah engagement was very interesting, I think it would be financially catastrophic for Lebanon if they got dragged into this, there’s already deep unrest there over the corruption of the Lebanese political elite and the Port of Beirut explosion further destabilised the country. I’m not sure how the Lebanese citizens would react to being dragged into a costly and dangerous conflict when the country is in such a precarious financial position and so many people are already suffering.

Agree again. No point engaging with someone who only wants to shout antisemitism and deflect any legitimate criticism of a governments actions.