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Conflict in the Middle East

To think Israel won't exist much longer?

890 replies

sergeantsalt · 28/10/2023 07:56

Support in the west is declining, and when Israel doesn't have weapons and defense funding they won't be able to defend against their neighbouring countries on their own. AIBU to wonder how much longer it can exist given they are losing support?

OP posts:
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78
Tatumm · 31/10/2023 14:07

Yes, I can’t believe you are having to state what to some of us is perfectly obvious!

BlurredEdges · 31/10/2023 14:06

Parkingt111 · 31/10/2023 14:02

The hostages are innocent civilians and
should be released immediately. They did nothing to deserve this.
I don't care if I was treated like royalty I still wouldn't want to be kidnapped!

Thanks for saying this. X

Also presume you understand (as previous posters apparently don't) that videos of hostages released by their captors don't tend to represent them freely expressing their opinions.

I can't believe I'm even having to say this. Then again I can't believe many of the things I hear at the moment...

Parkingt111 · 31/10/2023 14:02

whatswrongwiththeworldddd · 31/10/2023 13:47

It's so funny how the hostages all had nothing but good things to say about their treatment and nothing but bad about Israel.

The hostages are innocent civilians and
should be released immediately. They did nothing to deserve this.
I don't care if I was treated like royalty I still wouldn't want to be kidnapped!

EasternStandard · 31/10/2023 13:57

whatswrongwiththeworldddd · 31/10/2023 13:47

It's so funny how the hostages all had nothing but good things to say about their treatment and nothing but bad about Israel.

Funny?

I doubt it. Harrowing and terrifying would be a better description of the actions of Hamas

BlurredEdges · 31/10/2023 13:53

whatswrongwiththeworldddd · 31/10/2023 13:47

It's so funny how the hostages all had nothing but good things to say about their treatment and nothing but bad about Israel.

They are HOSTAGES. Ffs. What the fuck do you think they are going to say? Have you never encountered this concept before?

The two women who were released, both of their husbands are still being held by Hamas.

the hostages deserve to be heard
No one is this naive, surely. No way.

whatswrongwiththeworldddd · 31/10/2023 13:47

Milkandhoneybees · 30/10/2023 20:13

It's so funny how the hostages all had nothing but good things to say about their treatment and nothing but bad about Israel.

whatswrongwiththeworldddd · 31/10/2023 13:41

I've seen so many threads on here where anyone that doesn't agree with Israel is just being told to be silent and their opinion doesn't matter.

Parkingt111 · 31/10/2023 13:32

@Eatapeach is this the excitement of palestinian deaths that you are referring to?

To think Israel won't exist much longer?
Milkandhoneybees · 31/10/2023 13:14

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Milkandhoneybees · 31/10/2023 12:16

BlurredEdges · 30/10/2023 23:04

The BBC and other mainstream news outlets in the UK have chosen not to show this as it's doing Hamas’s work for them. Why are you posting it?

I’ve posted it because there have been Zionists on these threads telling me that it’s fine to starve/deprive of clean water/deprive of anaesthetic/deprive of power/bomb the hostages in Gaza/fire bullets at hostages.

The whole point of a hostage is that you’d assume that a country would not wilfully kill their own citizens, but people are clearly quite comfortable with that. There has been a recording of a hostage saying that IDF were intentionally shooting at Hamas whilst they were holding Israelis. The faces of the hostages should be shown. Their voices should be heard.

And yes, before you ask, I believe that you should “negotiate with terrorists” if the alternative is, apparently, killing hostages and 3000+ babies and kids, and equal numbers of women (pregnant ones, too, with fathers holding the babies delivered from their dead wife).

This point of view makes me “ignorant”, apparently.

Conversely, I find your points of view utterly grotesque.

Parkingt111 · 31/10/2023 08:54

Whole families wiped out in their homes
It doesn't matter who they are
UN employees doctors journalists
All legitimate targets for Israel
We should just sit silently and Watch massacre upon massacre
Every night worse than the night before

To think Israel won't exist much longer?
Parkingt111 · 31/10/2023 08:51

Netanyahu is unhinged
Majority of Israelis don't even think he is doing right by his own country and then expect us to believe he gives a damn about innocent civilians

To think Israel won't exist much longer?
Parkingt111 · 31/10/2023 08:49

No place is safe in Gaza. Everywhere is a legitimate target
Whilst posters on here think we should just nod and accept like puppets

To think Israel won't exist much longer?
Puzzledandpissedoff · 31/10/2023 07:40

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

You saved me typing it, eatapeach, but don't expect the points raised to be answered with any rationality ... they never are

Trulywonderful · 30/10/2023 23:30

To do Hamas work for them

Or

Genuine ignorance

(Delete as appropriate)

BlurredEdges · 30/10/2023 23:04

Milkandhoneybees · 30/10/2023 20:13

The BBC and other mainstream news outlets in the UK have chosen not to show this as it's doing Hamas’s work for them. Why are you posting it?

Milkandhoneybees · 30/10/2023 20:05

feralunderclass · 30/10/2023 15:55

Yes, more of this please. Tell us that the Palestinian people are the architects of their own downfall and that every thing said about Israel is simply a lie. Maybe you and the five other supporters will start to believe it. This is what hasbara is for anyone who isn't aware. And at the same time saying all supporters of the Palestinian people are anti-smites.

Lacking so much in self-awareness that they don’t catch the dramatic irony of bringing up the pain of antisemitism in one breath and in the next breath telling a persecuted people who have been systematically ethnically cleansed that they “brought it on themselves”. 🤦‍♀️ It is classic abused becomes the abuser.

And the people afterwards encouraging this vile rhetoric and calling it a breath of fresh air. I honestly had to laugh.

feralunderclass · 30/10/2023 15:55

Eatapeach · 30/10/2023 10:42

People have an issue with basic facts. There was no Palestine or Israel before 1948. Palestine was a geographical and administrative designation for a place that had been governed by other empires for many hundreds of years. There were indigenous Jews and indigenous Arabs. There were Jews who migrated in from elsewhere , and Arabs who also migrated in - to benefit from the development that the Jews brought.
Two states were offered, only one side accepted. Jews therefore got their state.
Arabs rejected the possibility of their own state, and instead launched a war of extermination, which they lost. They tried again in 1967 and lost. They tried again in 1973 and lost. Each time they tried , and lost, Israel was able to expand. Israel expanded to secure its borders and its people. Israel made deals - land for peace, that did nothing except demonstrate that peace and land were not the aims of the Palestinian leadership.
The Palestinian people are not innocent lambs, cornered and slaughtered by the Israeli war machine. They are the architects and victims of their own downfall, and mostly they are victims of their own leadership and hatred. There is no cycle of violence, there is just a permanent war against Israel, in which the murderous infamy of one side is never mentioned.
And isn’t it interesting, despite protestations that ‘criticism of Israel is not antisemitic’, that whenever it kicks off in Gaza, Jewish schools have to close or bring in extra security, that crowds fill the streets chanting ‘gas the Jews’ or ‘Khaybar, Khaybar…’, that Jews are verbally and physically attacked in London, New York, Sydney.
Israel is a proxy for ‘Jews’, and Anti-Israel/pro-Palestine activism as a proxy for antisemitism. Every single statement made against Israel is an outright lie, a distortion, an inversion, or a projection, with context clumsily stripped away altogether or torn apart and bodged back together into some grotesque Frankenstein’s monster of a narrative that cannot conceal its own true nature.
Cry me a river Jordan, Jew haters.

Yes, more of this please. Tell us that the Palestinian people are the architects of their own downfall and that every thing said about Israel is simply a lie. Maybe you and the five other supporters will start to believe it. This is what hasbara is for anyone who isn't aware. And at the same time saying all supporters of the Palestinian people are anti-smites.

SinnerBoy · 30/10/2023 13:48

Palestinians left because they were promised bigger and better things after the war. They were promised the land they had previously only been tenants of would become theirs after the war.

That's counter-factual.

They abandoned their homes temporarily, because they were told that they'd be in the middle of a ruddy great battle. They didn't leave because they thought that Jordan and Lebanon were going to give them mansions with 100 acres.

It's nothing but propaganda.

In any case, it absolutely did not give Israel any right to take their land.

SerafinasGoose · 30/10/2023 13:40

Eatapeach · 30/10/2023 13:05

@SerafinasGoose @Wanderingowl
thanks both for your posts, which add detail and nuance. I accept you rightly calling me out for my more intemperate remarks.

Of course, as you say, it is far more complicated than my account. However, I note that nuance and context always seems goes in one direction . One side appears uninterested in truth, only in motivated reasoning and marshalling facts and opinion that lead to the same end. If only both sides were held to the same standard of behaviour, I think we’d be having a conversation that was very different in tone and content. As it is, I am perhaps more strident than I need to be.

Thanks @Eatapeach for both a very interesting discussion and generous response. I can understand where you're coming from, especially since current discussion of the middle eastern situation often seems to be lacking a backdrop. IMO, and I'm happy to accept I might be wrong in this observation, this often amounts to as crude a distinction as to who is seen to be on the 'left' and who the 'right', and for people to flock to one side or the other on the basis of this kind of strange political 'tribalism'. I suspect those chanting 'Free Palestine' are of the same ilk as those chanting other political slogans seeming to emanate from the left, but which look nothing like any form of leftism I've ever seen in my life before. The L/R distinction is fast becoming meaningless; no longer is it clustering around the centre as is the British way, and IMO should not give people an easy 'out'. They should think about and work through their political loyalties, and examine why it is they hold the opinions they hold. Unfortunately as we've seen in too many of these threads, people are often unwilling to do this.

I've seen footage of what some of the pro-Palestinian demonstrators were chanting about UK Jews, and was horrified. The last century has shown where this kind of thinking has led. I'm also deeply worried by the rhetoric permeating our universities: in particular the unions. A local branch came under fire for its vocerifous support of David Miller, who was sacked by the University of Bristol for whipping up anti-Jewish sentiment. That branch stood by him and wanted him reinstated. They found themselves on the receiving end of accusations of antisemitic racism (which is fair, they should have investigated their loyalties more closely). The charge stuck against Miller, who even at his tribunal accused the JSoc of being a racist group because it supported Zionism. Unsurprisingly, Bristol stuck to their guns and refused to reinstate him. This lazy, ideological adherence to supposed left-wing thinking (that isn't left) is one of many reasons I'm currently seriously reconsidering my membership of the UCU. And I'm wondering what the hell working in today's universities must be like for my (sometimes very left wing) Jewish colleagues.

I read Anthony Julius's The Trials of the Disapora after I heard him interviewed on Radio 4 when the book was first published. This resugence of antisemitism is sadly not new, albeit I do disagree with his ultimate conclusions that any criticism of Israel is antisemitic. Such an erudite, nuanced book IMO deserved a more balanced conclusion. In the meantime, Jewish people have suffered in silence an increasing groundswell of antisemitism for nigh-on two decades, if not more.

As to backdrop, a lot of people seem to be forgetting who Hamas are. And who Netanyahu is, and his role in sabotaging the only real chance at a peace deal there's ever been. Hamas are the progeny of the ANO. The ANO, who employed some of the most barbaric instruments of torture humanity ever conceived, who orchestrated the Pan Am bombings, and who wanted every single Jew massacred. Celebrating their hideous actions is IMO akin to al qaeda supporters dancing in the streets after 9/11. But somehow, because it didn't happen on our doorsteps in the West, UK demonstrators seem to find this perfectly OK.

I find it unconsionable.

25milesfromhome · 30/10/2023 13:38

Wanderingowl · 30/10/2023 13:21

Eatapeach, I have to say I wasn't expecting that response. I wish everyone could be like you, the world would be a better place. I know it sounds like such a cliche, but this is such a complex situation. And if there is any hope for peace, it comes from people accepting that. But I don't know how it will come about when currently, the whole situation is dominated by people who want genocide over peace.

For a long time, I hated when people speaking up for Palestine were accused of anti-semitism but the reality is very clear in the last few weeks, that a lot of people have been using support of Palestine as an outlet for anti-semitism. It doesn't mean that everyone who sympathises with Palestinians is anti-semitic but some absolutely are. And it's honestly like some people are genuinely refusing to accept the utter horror of what happened on October 7th.

@Wanderingowl @Eatapeach
All of this, more of this please.
An oasis of sanity and understanding amidst all the raging noise.

Parkingt111 · 30/10/2023 13:23

@OhHelloTheres do you know more about it by any chance?
I mean what hope do the people of Gaza have when the winner of the Israel Defence Price says quite confidently that 'the state of Israel needs to accept that there are no innocents in Gaza'

It is very clear that the right wing government of Israel see the gazans as lesser beings

Wanderingowl · 30/10/2023 13:21

Eatapeach · 30/10/2023 13:05

@SerafinasGoose @Wanderingowl
thanks both for your posts, which add detail and nuance. I accept you rightly calling me out for my more intemperate remarks.

Of course, as you say, it is far more complicated than my account. However, I note that nuance and context always seems goes in one direction . One side appears uninterested in truth, only in motivated reasoning and marshalling facts and opinion that lead to the same end. If only both sides were held to the same standard of behaviour, I think we’d be having a conversation that was very different in tone and content. As it is, I am perhaps more strident than I need to be.

Eatapeach, I have to say I wasn't expecting that response. I wish everyone could be like you, the world would be a better place. I know it sounds like such a cliche, but this is such a complex situation. And if there is any hope for peace, it comes from people accepting that. But I don't know how it will come about when currently, the whole situation is dominated by people who want genocide over peace.

For a long time, I hated when people speaking up for Palestine were accused of anti-semitism but the reality is very clear in the last few weeks, that a lot of people have been using support of Palestine as an outlet for anti-semitism. It doesn't mean that everyone who sympathises with Palestinians is anti-semitic but some absolutely are. And it's honestly like some people are genuinely refusing to accept the utter horror of what happened on October 7th.

Parkingt111 · 30/10/2023 13:19

Does anyone in Israel know if he's been charged with hate crime or is that sort of conversation acceptable?

To think Israel won't exist much longer?
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