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Conflict in the Middle East

To think Israel won't exist much longer?

890 replies

sergeantsalt · 28/10/2023 07:56

Support in the west is declining, and when Israel doesn't have weapons and defense funding they won't be able to defend against their neighbouring countries on their own. AIBU to wonder how much longer it can exist given they are losing support?

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Oliotya · 28/10/2023 18:50

OhHelloTheres · 28/10/2023 18:39

I hate to say this, but have these lists been verified? I don't understand how they can have counted and identified them all so quickly when Israel still hasn't been able to identify all their bodies.

I know innocent children have died. One innocent life is obviously one too many. But are these lists accurate? It wouldn't be the first time a Palestinian organisation has greatly inflated the number of victims.

I'm sorry. I don't like having to talk as though these babies and children are just numbers. They're not. It's a hard topic to discuss without sounding really callous.

I'm really just asking you to question everything Hamas says. I'm not asking you to stop caring about the loss of lives. In fact, please never stop caring about the loss of life.

Firstly, how can anything be verified when there is both a digital blackout and complete physical blockade? And secondly, they haven't identified all the dead. These are just the ones they have.
But we dare to suggest the 40 beheaded babies wasn't entirely accurate...

OhHelloTheres · 28/10/2023 18:42

@Ylvamoon
I thought it was still heavily disputed that it's genocide? Or do you mean one of the historical wars rather than the most recent events? If so, I'm afraid I would have to read up on it as I don't know anything about the history of Armenia, really.

Eatapeach · 28/10/2023 18:41

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OhHelloTheres · 28/10/2023 18:39

I hate to say this, but have these lists been verified? I don't understand how they can have counted and identified them all so quickly when Israel still hasn't been able to identify all their bodies.

I know innocent children have died. One innocent life is obviously one too many. But are these lists accurate? It wouldn't be the first time a Palestinian organisation has greatly inflated the number of victims.

I'm sorry. I don't like having to talk as though these babies and children are just numbers. They're not. It's a hard topic to discuss without sounding really callous.

I'm really just asking you to question everything Hamas says. I'm not asking you to stop caring about the loss of lives. In fact, please never stop caring about the loss of life.

Twillow · 28/10/2023 18:36

tttigress · 28/10/2023 08:19

I think the media is making a big mistake continually highlighting the issue. They are actually increasing tension in the UK.

I try to watch as little BBC/Sky News/ Channel 4 news as possible. So maybe they are the things that will no longer exist.

It's massive world news. Why on earth would you expect them not to report on it?

lavender2023 · 28/10/2023 18:35

EsmaCannonball · 28/10/2023 17:14

The problem is that western democracies are in the minority and many of the people who are lucky enough to live in one seem to want a world order with Russia, China and Iran in charge. A lot of people also seem to want western prosperity and stability but none of the fundamental values that have been fought for over the centuries to create those conditions.

The worry for Israel at the moment is that Hamas has 30 000 fighters, Hezbollah at least 100 000 and, in recent weeks, at least 50 000 Iranian-backed jihadists have moved into southern Syria. Hezbollah and the jihadists in Syria are waiting to see if Israel gets bogged down in Gaza before deciding how to react. These are not rag-tag freedom fighters, they are Iranian-funded, armed and trained soldiers, but soldiers who will be fighting ISIS-style. (Indeed, many of them are from ISIS/ISIL.) If they invade, Israeli civilians won't be collateral casualties, they will be the targets.

So many people with comfortable lives seem to want to live in a totalitarian state. Perhaps we should do a deal where we take some of our Hampstead Radicals and Ivy League Ayatollahs and swap them for the hostages and Palestinian children? It seems cruel not to let them live among like-minded people.

Countries like Singapore prove that you don't need to be a democracy to have western style prosperity as it's the third richest country in the world with zero natural resources. It is richer than most western cities too (with the exception of cities in the USA) so not just about it being a western city state.

It is true however that peaceful countries are a minority perhaps due to history and social conditions. Peaceful countries are in two camps - western countries as well as very rich Asian countries with high degree of social harmony like Japan and Singapore (and some democratic principles like rule of law ).

Israel is also more of a hybrid regime these days, but perhaps not surprising given their young age, the security situation and demographics (most of their citizens are descendants of those expelled from Muslim lands/ex Soviet Union and still have the same mindset, Arabs or ultra orthodox Jews with those from liberal western countries in the definite minority).

Parkingt111 · 28/10/2023 18:16

Continued

To think Israel won't exist much longer?
To think Israel won't exist much longer?
To think Israel won't exist much longer?
Parkingt111 · 28/10/2023 18:15

This is what a genocide looks like
These are the 2913 CHILDREN killed by the Israeli military this month as of October 26th
And these are just the ones accounted for

To think Israel won't exist much longer?
To think Israel won't exist much longer?
To think Israel won't exist much longer?
To think Israel won't exist much longer?
To think Israel won't exist much longer?
Ylvamoon · 28/10/2023 18:11

OhHelloTheres · 28/10/2023 18:01

It's a terrible situation. It's not genocide though. I wish people would stop throwing that word around. It's like you think if you say it enough times it'll become normalised so that people stop questioning it and just accept it as the truth, further demonising Israel.

But if you look back in history to the plight of the Armenian People, you'll find many similarities to what is happening in Gaza ... that was genocide. So why not what's happening in Gaza?

Peterpiperspickledpepper · 28/10/2023 18:06

@OhHelloTheres absolutely agree. The term genocide has been used to the point that it’s meaningless.

OhHelloTheres · 28/10/2023 18:01

It's a terrible situation. It's not genocide though. I wish people would stop throwing that word around. It's like you think if you say it enough times it'll become normalised so that people stop questioning it and just accept it as the truth, further demonising Israel.

Parkingt111 · 28/10/2023 17:35

Netanyahu and his allies are further isolating Israel from the rest of the world.

They are committing a genocide
Let there be no doubt
This is a genocide

Tjada D’Oyen McKenna, chief executive of the humanitarian non-governmental organisation Mercy Corps, has issued the following statement in the wake of the widespread communications blackout across Gaza last night:
The last 24 hours of intense and escalating bombardments in Gaza will drastically increase the already horrific civilian death toll from this conflict. We have now lost touch with all of our nearly 70 team members in Gaza amid a communications blackout.

We have no way of verifying their safety or assessing the rapidly deteriorating situation. We fear for our team and for the 2 million civilians who are trapped in Gaza with nowhere safe to go and completely cut off from the outside world …

There is no internet. There is no mobile service. From limited information emerging from Gaza, the blackout means that people can’t call for ambulances, and the limited but critical humanitarian assistance that was

We fear the further escalation of violence will result in untold tragedy that will be a stain on the global conscience.”

To think Israel won't exist much longer?
EsmaCannonball · 28/10/2023 17:27

And, of course, the other issue is Ukraine being neglected or abandoned by the increasingly ambivalent Americans if Israel needs more support. All things that Iran's ally and long-standing opponent of Israel, Russia, wants.

EsmaCannonball · 28/10/2023 17:14

The problem is that western democracies are in the minority and many of the people who are lucky enough to live in one seem to want a world order with Russia, China and Iran in charge. A lot of people also seem to want western prosperity and stability but none of the fundamental values that have been fought for over the centuries to create those conditions.

The worry for Israel at the moment is that Hamas has 30 000 fighters, Hezbollah at least 100 000 and, in recent weeks, at least 50 000 Iranian-backed jihadists have moved into southern Syria. Hezbollah and the jihadists in Syria are waiting to see if Israel gets bogged down in Gaza before deciding how to react. These are not rag-tag freedom fighters, they are Iranian-funded, armed and trained soldiers, but soldiers who will be fighting ISIS-style. (Indeed, many of them are from ISIS/ISIL.) If they invade, Israeli civilians won't be collateral casualties, they will be the targets.

So many people with comfortable lives seem to want to live in a totalitarian state. Perhaps we should do a deal where we take some of our Hampstead Radicals and Ivy League Ayatollahs and swap them for the hostages and Palestinian children? It seems cruel not to let them live among like-minded people.

daytriptovulcan · 28/10/2023 16:47

Sorry but this is hysterical nonsense. Israel is definitely not the underdog.

SerafinasGoose · 28/10/2023 16:30

Puzzledandpissedoff · 28/10/2023 13:13

I've often said the same, but for this to work would mean all of those involved respecting the others equally - and unfortunately the sole purpose of the leaders of one group is, and has always been, to make sure the other no longer exists

But this is patently untrue. Conversely, it's hopelessly oversimplifying the issue, and to claim otherwise is conveniently to ignore over 7 decades of history that have passed between the mandate and now. It would be to forget how Hamas really came about - in opposition to Yasser Arafat, the PLO and Fatah who were too secular and too compromising for their liking. When ANO split off, becoming notorious as one of the most vicious, bloodthirsty terrorist organizations on the face of the planet, it didn't take long to clarify that Abu Nidal didn't give a fuck about Palestine, any more than he gave a fuck about religion, or even ideology for that matter. That's why he killed many of Arafat's top men, turned on his own side, and slaughtered about 600 of his own soldiers.

This isn't to revere Arafat as some kind of saint either - he perpetrated some indefensible acts himself - but in the end proved willing to compromise. He and Israeli PM Rabin shaking hands at the moment of the Oslo Accords promised to be a world-changing moment: the beginnings of a two state solution amid the acknowledgement that both nations had a right to exist, and both men received the Nobel peace prize for their efforts. Peace never came. Arafat would end up holed up in a compound in Gaza, and Rabin was assassinated, not by Hamas, but by the far right on his own side. This is why the silly 'my side, your side' tribalism looks so crude and silly in such a context. It isn't so straightforward as 'four legs good, two legs bad'. It isn't Hamas slaughtering Israelis, and Israel doing likewise to the Palestinians. The issue is the extremists on both sides - including Netanyahu - who want to kill not only the other side but also anyone on their own side who opposes them. This poses real problems when the answer to this conflict needs to come from the moderates on both sides. It's been tried. Look at where that ended up.

There are some other gems on this thread: such as (Palestinians who accepted the state of Israel and live well and with more rights within Israel than they would anywhere else in ME). You've got to be kidding. Have you been to Jerusalem, seen how Palestinians live there, seen how they're crammed into the most impoverished regions, denied basic rights and not even allowed to call themselves Palestinians, but 'Israeli Arabs?' Imagine how offensive that would be if applied to any ethnic group in the UK?

Hamas are terrorists. Their actions are indefensible. The Netanyahu government are war criminals. Their actions are also indefenensible. It's embarrassing how little people are aware of the huge complexities underpinning this conflict before they cheerfully nail their colours to one particular mast, and in doing so claim all the faults are on one side.

And the greatest complexity of all is that for 6000 years, Mediterranean and Semitic tribes have crossed paths, fought and intermarried in the region surrounding Jerusalem. The abiding continuinties of that region are cultural conflict, in terms of the later Abrahamic faiths that sprung up there, religious conflict, and for most of that time and in most of those places, the subjugation of women. For this to change, IMO there'd have to be little short of a seismic shift in power relations on this planet, starting with the superpowers. Because what precipitated the latest Hamas attack? Of course. Saudi were on the brink of recognising the Israeli state.

A two-state solution is so far from the desired outcome for so many in and beyond that region as to make it all-but an impossibility. No words can express how much I want to be wrong.

Auvergne63 · 28/10/2023 16:17

Wonkasworld · 28/10/2023 14:14

Whereas you've got it valley sussed, eh. The rest of us are sheep. Ironic.

She/he just stating facts.

Parkingt111 · 28/10/2023 15:47

There is no safe place in Gaza
This is why this war is like no other happening right now
The people have nowhere to go where they can say is safe and will not be killed
They are being butchered in a huge cage from land, air and sea
If they are hit or injured by a strike they can't even call an ambulance
Thousands still stuck under the rubble
Bakeries being bombed when food is already so scarce
Women who can't even reach the hospitals to give birth
Many children suffering from illnesses from drinking contaminated water and I can go on.

Israel has gone far beyond self defence. This is collective punishment. This is politics because Netanyahu knows his days are numbered in power

To think Israel won't exist much longer?
To think Israel won't exist much longer?
SoMuchSimpler · 28/10/2023 15:27

eardefender · 28/10/2023 15:13

You were comparing Hamas and Israel and trying to say they are similar, they are not, as i have tried to demonstrate.

Israel is bombing the north, 2 weeks ago they told civilians to leave. Why are there so many children there? Human Shields and an exaggeration of the numbers by Hamas.

Hamas terrorise their own people. Garzans are better off without them.

No, I was saying that supporters of both sides have been indoctrinated from birth to grow up as bigots. Israel's actions of the last 3 weeks are as bad as, if not worse than, Hamas' 3 weeks ago. They're both disgusting.

Israel is bombing the whole of Gaza, not just the North. You know that.

You don't know that Hamas are exaggerating casualties. Independent sources have said that Hamas don't usually exaggerate casualties.

Why are there so many children there?

To think Israel won't exist much longer?
OhHelloTheres · 28/10/2023 15:23

https://fb.watch/nWkTIlvhpA/?mibextid=j8LeHn

Forgot to add the link 🤦🏻‍♀️

OhHelloTheres · 28/10/2023 15:22

@TwilightSkies
Here is a video of a rocket hitting a residential building.

Please note the 153 laughing emojis and then tell me people don't support Hamas.

SammyScrounge · 28/10/2023 15:19

TwilightSkies · 28/10/2023 08:38

If Israel didn’t exist how would the defence industry rip off the American taxpayer to extent that it does. Conflict is needed for that industry to flourish.

Exactly!

Also, where are all the videos of Israeli’s being attacked/bombed? I haven’t seen a single one.

We saw many the night Hamas attacked Israel. Around 4,000.

eardefender · 28/10/2023 15:13

SoMuchSimpler · 28/10/2023 15:09

I'm not sure exactly what you don't agree with @eardefender ? Nothing you wrote seems to contradict what I wrote?

The cross-party consensus in Israeli politics at the moment seems to be that it's OK to bomb the shit out of a region where 75% of the population are women and children, apparently in order to defeat a small minority of nutters who they know are sheltering in underground tunnels anyway.

You were comparing Hamas and Israel and trying to say they are similar, they are not, as i have tried to demonstrate.

Israel is bombing the north, 2 weeks ago they told civilians to leave. Why are there so many children there? Human Shields and an exaggeration of the numbers by Hamas.

Hamas terrorise their own people. Garzans are better off without them.

SoMuchSimpler · 28/10/2023 15:09

I'm not sure exactly what you don't agree with @eardefender ? Nothing you wrote seems to contradict what I wrote?

The cross-party consensus in Israeli politics at the moment seems to be that it's OK to bomb the shit out of a region where 75% of the population are women and children, apparently in order to defeat a small minority of nutters who they know are sheltering in underground tunnels anyway.

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