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Conflict in the Middle East

Gaza has gone dark ... and I am very afraid!

355 replies

HeidiInTheBigCity · 27/10/2023 19:14

Tonight, as Gaza has gone dark, tonight, as Gazan civilians have lost that lifeline that used to be "publishing their cries for help to the Internet, as they were literally dying", tonight, as even that option has ceased to exist!

I STAND WITH CIVILIANS!

Not with Hamas!
NOT with the ultra-far-right Israeli government - out for revenge!

Tonight, I STAND WITH CIVILIANS, as innocent men, women and children are dying, collectively punished, for the crime of having been born in the wrong place, at the wrong time!

Tonight, I STAND WITH CIVILIANS, as the families of Israeli hostages watch helplessly, as their missing loved ones are bombed into oblivion, and their own PM has not even bothered to meet with them! Because, once again, revenge has won! Violence has won! Barbarism has won! Death has won!

Tonight, I stand with my friend, a Palestinian-born [what he does for a living] currently getting drunk at a bar in [not where you'd expect] - because he cannot stand watching anymore! We cried together on the phone - it felt nice to know there was someone else out there - but it also felt supremely disempowered and helpless! Tonight, I stand with men, women, boys, girls ... just people, people who want to live!

Tonight, as I recall how utterly terrified I used to be when I, myself, became an accidental witness to the assault on [Palestinian city], some 20 years ago now! I also recall the good times: I recall standing on the rooftop of the [name] family's home, watching flares in the sky, deliberately pretending they were just very bright stars, kissing, and dancing with my fiancé. Snuggling up to him under the wide open sky, as we ignored the sound of shooting in the background, as we just wanted to ... live a little! ... under circumstances that didn't leave much room for living. For life! Knowing we would learn about names of people we knew and the fact that they had been killed while we had been trying to ... just live a little ... as the following day would break!

Tonight, I stand with civilians, realising that this particular, comparatively "fluffy" version of war - a version, make no mistake, that has left me deeply traumatised for life, bittersweet memories aside! - this is just NOT AN OPTION for Gazans tonight!

Tonight, I CRY FOR CIVILIANS! Especially, but not only, for civilians in Gaza!

We have GOT TO DO better!

Note: yes, I have censored a number of data points - because that is how afraid I am! I am not willing to potentially expose people I consider friends, family even, unnecessarily as I, frankly helplessly, post to the so-called Internet, pleading for their lives or, at the very least: sympathy!

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RedToothBrush · 28/10/2023 21:12

https://twitter.com/iyad_elbaghdadi/status/1717632453240602793

Follow up thread in full.

As I said previously, this guy is REALLY worth a follow.

RedToothBrush · 28/10/2023 21:06

I'm going to post some selected bits from another thread by Iyad el-Baghdadi

It's a thread in response to some of the questions he got from the one above.

I'm going to do this a little out of order - with a point.

A few people triggered me by cheering for this side or that or talking about "winning" or "losing". Do you see anyone winning? These are human beings being killed and human lives being shattered, destroyed.

I hate geopolitical-centric thinking even though I have to engage in it (and as you see I'm pretty good at it). It trains you to look at the world as a game of chess and almost ignore the human lives.

Reminder of my comment here. I'm sorry but cheering for war either way is disgusting.

He is Palestinian.

Oh this he says:

People asking how representative I am of Palestinians. I am extremely Palestinian and I represent only myself. Palestinians are a diverse people with diverse opinions. My comment here (from 2021) stands

From 2021:
Palestinians are a very diverse group of people. We were already diverse pre 1948, but since then we were also forced to live under very different realities from each other. Please do not assume that one Palestinian represents everyone. Follow a whole bunch of people for balance.

For this exact same reason, there needs to be a flurry of initiatives for intra-Palestinian conversation after these events. Including difficult ones. We need to get to know each other, not only in terms of our ideas but where they come from, and what realities we lived under.

Also if you're Palestinian you need in this moment to prioritize your identity over your ideology. Those Palestinians you disagree with were also uprooted, crushed, and traumatized. They lived different lives and came to value different things. Don't hate them, get to know them.

I have ALWAYS found him as a very measured, non emotional tweeter who gives a really well educated opinion (it's still an opinion). But one I've always found helpful and worthwhile reading.

Going back to some of the other points he makes in the thread answering questions (still doing this out of order because I think it's important to emphasise these bits)

Someone asked whether Israel's electorate want Gaza ethnically cleansed. The answer is actually no, the Israeli electorate were largely satisfied with the pre-Oct 7 status quo and thought it was manageable (Palestinians of course were not, it was just relentless and escalating violence and pain).

Did they change their minds after Oct 7? We don't know, but I don't think so. The ethnic cleansing push is coming from certain people in Israel but I don't think it's a mainstream opinion, not yet at least.

On the point about whether what Israel is doing constitutes ethnic cleansing, I think it's worth going back to international law.

This is an international law professor from Switzerland.

Evelyne Schmid AT evelyneschmid
"Northern Gaza" is not, cannot be, a military target in accordance with international law. A whole city cannot be a target. No warning can change that. Warnings are part of the legal analysis when a military objective has been identified; only then does IHL ask about precaution.

Precaution is oc built in the requirements to select targets. The fact that military objects have to be distinguished from civilian ones is a precaution to save life&dignity. But precaution exercised by way of warnings does not and cannot render an indiscriminate attack legal.

Moreover, where, where are people supposed to go? The injured ones, the disabled, the elderly and sick? Those without fuel, food, water and protection against the cold? This must stop.

More clarification: we can only assess the legality of specific attacks (not all of them together), and for that, the Q is whether or not there is a military target in a specific place at a specific target and if so, what the ex ante considerations are re proportionality & precaution.

Clearly, there are military objectives in N Gaza. They are in densely populated areas and may potentially be attacked. But importantly, asking everyone to evacuate does not liberate the IDF from the obligation to only direct attacks against military objectives.

To put more simply collective punishments are a breach of article 33 of the Geneva convention and 'clearing an area' and regarding anyone who remains as a hostile is a problem under international law. Whilst ethnic cleansing does not have a single definition, what Israel is doing would match definitions used in the former Yugoslavia which the UK recognises as ethnic cleansing.

So I don't think it's an unfair use of the phrase. He doesn't go as far as calling Israel actions genocidal but does clarify with the following comment:
Also a reminder that ethnic cleansing and genocide aren't always separate things; they're a continuum of each other.

el-Baghdadi talks about reluctance of Palestinians to move, which in the context of the Israeli asking the Palestinians to move is noteworthy. Keep in mind the Israeli's know this:

There was a question about whether Palestinians would rather "leave" than get bombed and whether they'll leave Gaza if it's damaged beyond repair. How do I explain the Palestinian concept of "sumud صمود" (staying put)?

Like I said elsewhere Palestinians are survivors of erasure. After the Nakba, Palestinians adopted a popular attitude of "staying put" (sumud), this is ingrained in our psyche. Perhaps this song can explain?

Lyrics:
"I'm staying put
In my land, I'm staying put
They can take my livelihood, I'm staying put
They can kill my children, I'm staying put
They can blow up my house, and in its ruins, I'm staying put"

Going back to geopolitics he posts this about Biden and the West:

A few asked about the Biden-Netanyahu relationship. A lot of my insight came from this reporting from Axios. Basically, Biden and Netanyahu don't get along, and while Biden declares strong support in public, in private he's been trying to rein him in.
https://www.axios.com/2023/10/21/israel-hamas-war-inside-bidens-gaza-strategy

I think knowing this and that Biden wanted a meeting that was cancelled (and Sunak stepping in on in some capacity) needs to be on the radar.

Someone asked about Biden's political calculations. Well, taking a very strong position on Israel will ensure that he can't get criticized by the GOP for being insufficiently invested in Israel's security. In fact right-wingers went nuts over this (can you believe Tucker Carlson actually called for de-escalation?

But it's really more likely Biden is acting on political impulse/instinct. He's a Zionist through & through, he said so himself.

That kinda show how far Netanyhu is pushing the US on this and how uncomfortable Biden - an admitted Zionist - also feels.

I find this comment interesting.

Several questions about the atrocities committed on Oct 7. I'm preparing another thread on this but there are now many reports by credible journalists that make it impossible to deny that horrific atrocities were committed on that day.

Israel says Hamas planned every single atrocity from the start. Hamas says some of the worst atrocities were done by other opportunistic parties from Gaza that used the border fence breach to go on a rampage. They also say that at least some of the civilian deaths were due to a disorganized and heavy-handed IDF response.

Like I said I have another thread coming on this but at this point I don't think anybody who's objective can doubt that Hamas committed serious war crimes that day.

Remember we have a massive information war going on for hearts and minds. Hamas outraged the world with war crimes. There seems to be a concerted effort by the Israelis to say it was premeditated whilst there now seems to be a massive row back from Hamas itself. At the same time we have the images (and now lack of images) coming from Gaza.

Fascinating to see Hamas realising a need to do a PR job and that war crimes aren't a good look for anyone...

They want to be taken seriously and as el-Baghdadi pointed out on his original thread Hamas stated objectives have largely been overlooked. (To this point - I think we will start to hear more on this - the hostages are leverage to this).

One final point he makes.

There was a question about Hamas and the hostages. Well, it seems that Hamas is playing an interesting game with the hostages, releasing a few every few days to forestall a ground invasion and to increase political pressure on Netanyahu and the pro-Israel coalition. You can't start a ground invasion when hostages are being released every few days.

In fact there's reporting that Netanyahu and the IDF have been very frustrated by this. There was also reporting that when Hamas said it would release some hostages, Israel initially ignored them.

There's been a development tonight on the hostage situation.

The families of the hostages have met with Netanyhu. It was not a friendly meeting by all accounts.

They have officially endorsed a collective position of swapping all the hostages for all Hamas prisoners Israel holds. "Everyone for everyone" being the slogan.

Plenty of other interesting points on the thread. Will post link in a second.

AutumnFroglets · 28/10/2023 20:33

@HeidiInTheBigCity please do not get it deleted. I know it became side tracked a little but I have also learnt a lot here especially from @RedToothBrush . They have made some incredibly informative posts that have made me think.

KnickersOfBoomBoom · 28/10/2023 19:17

Absolutely heart breaking 24 hours. I have learnt something today, trying to keep up with minimal news aired. I’ve learnt that a straw poll of Israeli inhabitants in Isreal has highlighted little support for an Israeli army ground offensive. Hearing that Israeli people do not consider a ground offensive proportionate gives me hope

LittleMsTellTheTruth · 28/10/2023 18:35

Hi @HeidiInTheBigCity
I also wanted to say that appreciate what you tried to do.
I too wish we could have one thread where we could talk / share about this heartbreaking situation.
What’s happening to Palestinians is just beyond words and I have no one to talk to about it (people I can talk about this are sadly pro genocide,so it’s even more upsetting to talk about anything).
And the internet it’s just filled with hatred towards arabs/muslims/palestinians, feels like there no where to turn.

HeidiInTheBigCity · 28/10/2023 18:30

Thank you, @MrsTerryPratchett and @Dinkydaisy1!

OP posts:
Dinkydaisy1 · 28/10/2023 18:21

@HeidiInTheBigCity it helps to see there are people who can still think and feel for others. It makes the world feel just a tiny, tiny, tiny bit more hopeful.

MrsTerryPratchett · 28/10/2023 18:19

If it helps at all @HeidiInTheBigCity I've found a couple of links because of this thread. My knowledge has increased and I now have a few women working for peace links to share.

You can sow seeds. Not all of them will grow.

HeidiInTheBigCity · 28/10/2023 18:14

I am the OP, and I posted this yesterday to, hopefully, create a space for all those of us left afraid, speechless! For those of us who wanted to grieve with people, stand with civilians ...

But: this has descended into the exact opposite of what I was hoping to achieve.

I have asked @MNHQ to delete the thread! I have no idea if they will - but in case they do not:

I have not given anyone my consent to engage in senseless "point scoring" on the back of my appeal to our shared humanity!

OP posts:
Parkingt111 · 28/10/2023 18:05

@emilysquest i believe the ground excursion may have resumed
No doubt the morning will bring us new horrors
Last night I saw a video where in the distance you could hear the gut wrenching terrified screams and wails of women from Al shati refugee camp.
This morning the images surfaced of what was left behind

emilysquest · 28/10/2023 17:59

Eye on Palestine Instagram is no longer posting any new content. My daughter was following a number of people inside Gaza, all have gone silent now...

Parkingt111 · 28/10/2023 17:32

Take note of her last sentence
This is a genocide

Tjada D’Oyen McKenna, chief executive of the humanitarian non-governmental organisation Mercy Corps, has issued the following statement in the wake of the widespread communications blackout across Gaza last night:
The last 24 hours of intense and escalating bombardments in Gaza will drastically increase the already horrific civilian death toll from this conflict. We have now lost touch with all of our nearly 70 team members in Gaza amid a communications blackout.

We have no way of verifying their safety or assessing the rapidly deteriorating situation. We fear for our team and for the 2 million civilians who are trapped in Gaza with nowhere safe to go and completely cut off from the outside world …

There is no internet. There is no mobile service. From limited information emerging from Gaza, the blackout means that people can’t call for ambulances, and the limited but critical humanitarian assistance that was still operating will be severely hampered.

We urge a ceasefire now to end the devastating loss of life and protect civilians. We urge an immediate end to the siege and the urgent restoration of telecommunications, electricity and water services …

We fear the further escalation of violence will result in untold tragedy that will be a stain on the global conscience.”

Gaza | World news | The Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/world/gaza

Parker231 · 28/10/2023 17:03

https://x.com/davenewworld_2/status/1717940240617255043?s=46&t=7uZ5GLraCHnmbl4o9C79gA

Dont know who the speaker is - Irish parliament? But something everyone should listen yo

https://x.com/davenewworld_2/status/1717940240617255043?s=46&t=7uZ5GLraCHnmbl4o9C79gA

duchiebun · 28/10/2023 16:42

Maybe have a re-read of our earlier exchanges and you’ll get the reference.

I haven’t seen anything on your exchanges that is clear

RedToothBrush · 28/10/2023 16:27

Britneyfan · 28/10/2023 16:15

I’m also from N Ireland like some others on this thread and I really wish people would stop comparing N Ireland with Israel/Palestine, I understand the temptation but I believe it is a false equivalence.

Trust me, I’m not a fan of the IRA in the slightest (and would have been on “the other side” of that community division growing up in Belfast, hearing the bombs go off in the background while in my classroom, or having to evacuate the city centre on a shopping trip), but the scale and barbarity of the recent Hamas attack, and the extremity of Hamas’s general position/aims is something else again completely. The peace process could never have happened without the IRA being willing to make significant compromises on their stated aims, and Hamas is just clearly not in the same headspace in the slightest and I don’t believe it would ever be as it takes such an extreme position.

This is an article from 2007 but I think it’s very helpful in thinking about why we can’t simply apply the solutions that worked in N Ireland to Israel/Palestine.

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/31/opinion/31iht-edevrony.1.7331274.html

I think dismissing it completely is just as wrong.

It's a very very different situation. But it doesn't mean we can't learn ANYTHING from it either.

Of course we can.

It's not saying it's the same and their are parallels. It's saying there are useful points we can learn from and adapt.

Things that don't relate to Hamas at all but to the civilian population.
.

Britneyfan · 28/10/2023 16:15

I’m also from N Ireland like some others on this thread and I really wish people would stop comparing N Ireland with Israel/Palestine, I understand the temptation but I believe it is a false equivalence.

Trust me, I’m not a fan of the IRA in the slightest (and would have been on “the other side” of that community division growing up in Belfast, hearing the bombs go off in the background while in my classroom, or having to evacuate the city centre on a shopping trip), but the scale and barbarity of the recent Hamas attack, and the extremity of Hamas’s general position/aims is something else again completely. The peace process could never have happened without the IRA being willing to make significant compromises on their stated aims, and Hamas is just clearly not in the same headspace in the slightest and I don’t believe it would ever be as it takes such an extreme position.

This is an article from 2007 but I think it’s very helpful in thinking about why we can’t simply apply the solutions that worked in N Ireland to Israel/Palestine.

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/31/opinion/31iht-edevrony.1.7331274.html

Reallifelurker · 28/10/2023 15:13

You've totally lost me now.

Maybe have a re-read of our earlier exchanges and you’ll get the reference.

RedToothBrush · 28/10/2023 14:51

Loulou599 · 28/10/2023 14:07

It's so boring this self centered desire to draw an analogy with the UK and NI.
The situation is like if the IRA not only wanted change for NI, but if it embarked on terrorist activities because its one end goal was to annihilate the UK.

Do you think all Gazans belong to Hamas?

Do you think all Irish belonged to the IRA?

Tbh it doesn't matter what the objective is.

The problem here is the assumption that everyone believes the same thing and therefore these levels of violence are necessary.

The problem is that when you start bombing people or you start shooting the wrong people on the street you DO become the enemy and it plays to the agendas of people who want certain political agendas. My enemies enemy is my friend mentality. The way that Hamas seized control in the first place owes a lot to this dynamic.

Most people on the street aren't interested in this level of politics. It doesn't matter where you live in the world. People's priorities are a roof over their head, food, water, a job and safety for their family. They will generally support those who do their best to ensure those things. War is for leaders not the led. When you introduce a player who tries to take those basic things away from you, what happens?

The situation in Gaza because of blockades has only aggravated this problem. It means that shortages are a way to control the general population which becomes increasingly dependent on the power that exists - cos authoritarianism.

Let's be clear here: Many people in Gaza are victims of Israel oppression AND the exploitation of Israeli oppression by Hamas to tighten their control and power within Gaza. Some might be aware of this. Others unwillingly go along with it due to a lack of alternative and desperation.

And you are right, Gaza isn't like NI because the IRA didn't have this level of control over citizens. Citizens weren't dependent on the IRA.

Unpicking this mess, needs efforts to separate civilians from Hamas for this very reason. We have to see how power structures are created and work because that's how you weaken them over time.

In terms of de-escalation, the way that NI got to the Good Friday agreement was through appeals to the populace that the violence had gone to far and everyone was tired of it. Normalisation is about stopping saying X and y are totally different and instead pointing out where there is common interest and mutual benefit to stopping. So it starts to win support and momentum builds. And this undermines the terrorism and the leadership of the terrorism.

Offer an alternative.

At present what alternative to Hamas do Gazans have?

duchiebun · 28/10/2023 14:30

Because terrorism

I still don’t see the equivalence?

Yeah, I was open to explanations as to how Gaza can be considered an independent country with its own government/infrastructure but here we are.

You've totally lost me now.

Im not the one who equating the situation in Gaza with the Troubles, I just disagreed. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Reallifelurker · 28/10/2023 14:25

It’s not a question. I asked for the differences because I don’t see them. But please tell us all why it is the same circumstances?

Because terrorism

I do believe that is how governments tend to act but again I’m open to examples in the West of governments bombing their own citizens?

Yeah, I was open to explanations as to how Gaza can be considered an independent country with its own government/infrastructure but here we are.

Loulou599 · 28/10/2023 14:07

It's so boring this self centered desire to draw an analogy with the UK and NI.
The situation is like if the IRA not only wanted change for NI, but if it embarked on terrorist activities because its one end goal was to annihilate the UK.

Twillow · 28/10/2023 14:03

Puzzledandpissedoff · 27/10/2023 21:25

Jeremy Corbyn: "Please, we need a ceasefire, now"

What he means is that he'd prefer Israel to cease to exist - because that's what a ceasefire could easily mean

But then, with his known views and chosen associates, that's what I'd expect him to want

Utter rubbish.
It seems all anyone has to do nowadays to be antisemitic is to build bridges by talking to 'enemies' or express horror at Israel's behaviour.
I wasn't anti-Israel.
I am now.

duchiebun · 28/10/2023 14:00

On a more simplistic level, if your relatives and friends are being being bombed or attacked, you will see the ones doing it as evil.

Its true & that’s one reason given for the rise in far right terrorism.

Cos frankly everyone is in the wrong on some level because human rights have been regarded as inconvenient to geopolitical interests in various ways. And human rights have been politicised to somehow only apply to certain groups when it suits our agenda.

Capitalism cannot exist without oppression & inequality

Evvyjb · 28/10/2023 13:57

God help them. We are watching genocide unfold.

duchiebun · 28/10/2023 13:53

I’m not sure if it was you or someone else but they said what Israel were doing would be the equivalent of the UK bombing Ireland during the Troubles & again I don’t understand the comparison.