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Conflict in the Middle East

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Original poster

To have questions about occupied land in Gaza?

242 replies

Autumnalvibesofmellowness · 27/10/2023 11:59

This is in no way an attempt to diminish the atrocities of October 7th.

We hear that Jewish people across the world are scared and I understand why. Fully sympathise. We hear they want their hostages released and I fully support that too. We hear that Israeli foreign policy right now has to be brutal because Hamas and there's no point trying to negotiate because Hamas don't want a two state solution. I'm open to all this being true.

But then I hear that Palestinians have their homes destroyed, their orchards bulldozed and their land occupied by Israeli settlers living in places that are Palestinian. I hear that Palestinian families sometimes have lasers on their bodies where Israeli snipers are trained on them, not being fired at but targeted as an intimation tactic to get them to leave their homes. I've read that Gaza could afford its own water but consent to put in water supplies needs to be given by Israel and never is.

(I also don't understand why special forces can't deal with Hamas rather than bombing Gazan children into oblivion and have seen US military leaders saying the same - but that's another issue).

I genuinely don't understand. Why the provocation and incursion upon Palestinians trying to get on with their lives? Why not stop that if the goal is to feel safe and have a two state solution? Many posters here have recently responded to the reported Gazan casualties of war by suggesting that it's Hamas' fault for not giving back hostages. But about the hostages....if I was an Israeli settler on Palestinian land I would return to Israel or offer to do so in order to secure this, if we're talking about everything being done that could be done to get those people home. It might be negotiating with terrorists in a way but surely displacing people from their homes is also a kind of terrorism so this solution would be a mutual standing down? If all Israel wants is a two state solution they're losing nothing and everyone wins.

I guess I'm wondering why we can't talk about this openly and why there is ongoing provocation of Gaza. It seems like Biden and other leaders skirt round the edges of this and Israel finds it incendiary. It also seems like there are logical conclusions that can only be drawn very hesitantly because they might be found offensive when they're actually common sense. I don't even feel like I can talk about these issues in RL for fear of being written off as antisemitic. As much as I sympathise, I'm perplexed. For example, I sympathise deeply with Jewish children who have to hide their uniforms to feel safe - that should never happen and particularly not to a people group who have endured the Holocaust. But why doesn't the Jewish community do what it can to minimise the tensions by stopping Israeli settlers moving into Palestinian homes? How does Israel have the moral high ground when it looks like an ongoing land grab rather than either party having a goal for peace? I don't think Palestinian children should be homeless because they feel driven out of their community either - but it seems like that's not ok to say. Or is it?

OP posts:
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Efacsen · 27/10/2023 15:28

Housechat · 27/10/2023 15:23

@Efacsen - I don’t think the top guys are there, they are in other countries. The BBC interviewed someone from Hamas recently and he was in Lebanon maybe? Maybe Iran?

Out and about with Putin yesterday too

Agree tho' there will still be the hostages and stockpiles

IDF posted a pic of a tunnel - ?really narrow

WhiteHorseSpirit · 27/10/2023 15:25

I'm sure that Palestinians would rather unload their knickers from planes at the airport Israel destroyed or from a seaport that Israel won't let them have.

This was yet another way the Oslo Accords were trampled on by Israel. The agreement included an airport…it was funded by the US, Clinton presided over its opening in 1998. It was heralded as hope for Palestinians to have a future. Then less than two years later, Israel bombed the runway, terminal and traffic control tower and announced any attempt to repair would be met with more bombing. https://www.timesofisrael.com/20-years-after-its-opening-destroyed-gaza-airport-embodies-grounded-peace-hopes/

Several NGOs tried to run the sea blockade to deliver aid to Gaza…all were intercepted, boarded, and turned away on threat of being sunk by Israeli naval forces.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10202678

20 years after its opening, destroyed Gaza airport embodies grounded peace hopes

The 1998 inauguration of the facility near Rafah was seen as a symbol of Palestinian hopes for peace and independence. Now, much like those aspirations, it lies in ruin

https://www.timesofisrael.com/20-years-after-its-opening-destroyed-gaza-airport-embodies-grounded-peace-hopes/

Housechat · 27/10/2023 15:23

@Efacsen - I don’t think the top guys are there, they are in other countries. The BBC interviewed someone from Hamas recently and he was in Lebanon maybe? Maybe Iran?

Dinkydaisy1 · 27/10/2023 15:22

Biggest democracy...

To have questions about occupied land in Gaza?
Efacsen · 27/10/2023 15:19

WhiteHorseSpirit · 27/10/2023 15:03

Exactly right. And if you dig to any real depth like you’d need for a proper bunker type bomb shelter, you’d hit sea water.

Show quote history

It does beg the question of where Hamas HQ is - can't run a war [hide hostages/stockpiles] from a maze of tunnels - there must be a biggish void or some small inter-connecting ones somewhere

I read somewhere that Israel constantly monitors underground movement in the tunnels both using drones and land-based listening equipment so they probably know where it is

Ohlalalalala · 27/10/2023 15:18

@Autumnalvibesofmellowness

This is a good read and will give you an idea about the horrific situation there:

The Nakba did not start or end in 1948 https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2017/5/23/the-nakba-did-not-start-or-end-in-1948

The Nakba did not start or end in 1948

Key facts and figures on the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2017/5/23/the-nakba-did-not-start-or-end-in-1948

Gruntsandgroans · 27/10/2023 15:07

You need to separate Gaza out as it is not occupied by Israel. It is controlled by Hamas. It has received millions if not billions in aid and has somehow not managed to provide basic needs for the Gaza people.

You see this is why it is confusing. Israel and pro Israel people say that Gaza isn't occupied. The UN and pretty much all human rights organisations say that it is. Israel have had Gaza under their control for almost 2 decades, they deny it though, even though it is clear that they do to everyone else and instead bounce everything back on Hamas.

Do you know about the tunnel network beneath Gaza and where the building materials came from?

The tunnels came about from Israel stopping all imports and exports to and from Gaza. They have been used by Hamas yes but they are also used to smuggle things like underwear, car parts and goats. Even chairs for schools that have been frequently bombed by Israel have had to be smuggled in because Israel so tightly controls what Gazans are allowed to import. Without the tunnel network Gazans would be at the mercy of Israel even more. Its far from an ideal solution and I'm sure that Palestinians would rather unload their knickers from planes at the airport Israel destroyed or from a seaport that Israel won't let them have. Israel drove the economy underground quite literally when they stopped pretty much all economic activity within Gaza. Israel don't want people to talk about this though, because you know according to Israel Gaza isn't occupied and they can do whatever they like, they just choose to do violence instead of having a thriving economy.

Dulra · 27/10/2023 15:06

Housechat · 27/10/2023 14:58

@thatone - I completely agree as you will see from my other posts, I just realise it’s not easy for western leaders to condemn Israel’s conduct.

No it isn't easy. The Irish and Spanish government's are lone voices in Europe criticising the Israeli actions and we are getting called all sorts by the Israeli diplomats including the Israeli ambassador to Ireland who is questioning our neutrality

WhiteHorseSpirit · 27/10/2023 15:03

Efacsen · 27/10/2023 15:00

Or the tower blocks collapsing into their foundations

It's just compacted sand - good for narrow tunnels which can be reinforced not good for big voids

Show quote history

Exactly right. And if you dig to any real depth like you’d need for a proper bunker type bomb shelter, you’d hit sea water.

WhiteHorseSpirit · 27/10/2023 15:01

This is a website of a Israeli Human Rights Organisation
https://www.btselem.org/

From their about us page”B’Tselem – The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories strives for a future in which human rights, liberty and equality are guaranteed to all people, Palestinian and Jewish alike, living between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. Such a future will only be possible when the Israeli occupation and apartheid regime end. That is the future we are working towards. B’Tselem (in Hebrew literally: in the image of), the name chosen for the organization by the late Member of Knesset Yossi Sarid, is an allusion to Genesis 1:27: “And God created humankind in His image. In the image of God did He create them.” The name expresses the universal and Jewish moral edict to respect and uphold the human rights of all people.Since B’Tselem’s inception in 1989, we have been documenting, researching and publishing statistics, testimonies, video footage, position papers and reports on human rights violations committed by Israel in the Occupied Territories. The initial mandate we took upon ourselves focused on the occupation regime in the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and in the Gaza Strip. However, over the years, it has become clear that the concept of two parallel regimes operating between the Mediterranean Sea and Jordan River – a permanent democracy west of the Green Line and a temporary military occupation to the east of it – is divorced from reality. The entire area that Israel controls is ruled by a single apartheid regime, governing the lives of all people living in it and operating according to one organizing principle: establishing and perpetuating the control of one group of people – Jews – over another – Palestinians – through laws, practices and state violence.“

Efacsen · 27/10/2023 15:00

WhiteHorseSpirit · 27/10/2023 14:33

In secret. And frankly that liminal land couldn’t support bomb shelters for 2.3m without sinking into the sea.

Show quote history

Or the tower blocks collapsing into their foundations

It's just compacted sand - good for narrow tunnels which can be reinforced not good for big voids

Housechat · 27/10/2023 14:58

@thatone - I completely agree as you will see from my other posts, I just realise it’s not easy for western leaders to condemn Israel’s conduct.

feralunderclass · 27/10/2023 14:57

Dulra · 27/10/2023 14:37

I was watching C4 news last night and they were interviewing Israeli military (I think the reserves who've been called up) one soldiers language really stood out. He was talking about Palestinians how they're not the same as us (as in the West), they have different values, different rights, different ways, he was short of saying they are subhuman and I think if that's how they view Palestinians they won't have any problem with bombing them to bits.

This has always been the way, since the inception of the Zionist movement until the present day. You could make a table showing language used to describe Israelis and a parallel one for Palestinians. Palestinians have always been portrayed as animals, worthless, devoid of culture and uncivilized. They have no emotion or feelings of attachment towards land that is theirs or their homes.
I discussed this once with my Jewish friend (who is pro Zionist BTW) and she said it's much easier to believe that the people you are oppressing are subhuman, because you wouldn't be able to do it otherwise. It's part of their childhood narrative, that they are worthless and don't deserve human rights.

thatone · 27/10/2023 14:54

@Housechat you are probably right about that but the Palestinian death rate is racking up and we do have rules for war which every 'civilised' country has signed up to.

Housechat · 27/10/2023 14:48

@thatone - I think nations supporting Israel are in a difficult position. If they show any weakness in their support for Israel the likes of Iran, Hezbollah etc who want to see Israel destroyed could jump on that and see it as an opportunity. However their refusal to call Israel out on what it’s doing is also indefensible. I think they are a bit stuck. I assume that there is a lot of diplomacy going on behind the scenes trying to temper Netanyahu but it doesn’t seem to be working. A huge chunk of Israel’s wider security comes from more powerful allies like the US.

thatone · 27/10/2023 14:40

I saw that too Dulra and it was typical language that is used in warfare to dehumanise the enemy. It is no surprise at all that Israel is doing this but the fact that the rest of the world is happy to overlook, defend and justify this contravention of human rights is utterly chilling.

Alalalalalongalalalalalonglonglilong · 27/10/2023 14:39

Lolapusht · 27/10/2023 14:15

Israel isn’t doing this because their government is more right-wing. They’re doing it because Hamas terrorists invaded their country, massacred 1400 people and took over 200 hostages.

Hamas does need to be dealt with but until they stop hiding behind their civilians, Palestinian civilians will be killed.

Show quote history

But isn't that the moral issue at the crux of it? Hamas don't seem to give a shit about how many Palestinians die (or Israelis obviously.) It's the language around this I find so bizarre, why is no one mentioning liberating the innocent Palestinians?

Dulra · 27/10/2023 14:37

I was watching C4 news last night and they were interviewing Israeli military (I think the reserves who've been called up) one soldiers language really stood out. He was talking about Palestinians how they're not the same as us (as in the West), they have different values, different rights, different ways, he was short of saying they are subhuman and I think if that's how they view Palestinians they won't have any problem with bombing them to bits.

WeightoftheWorld · 27/10/2023 14:36

WhiteHorseSpirit · 27/10/2023 14:23

@Lolapusht
“You need to separate Gaza out as it is not occupied by Israel.”
Gaza is in fact occupied by Israel. This is fact.

“It is controlled by Hamas. It has received millions if not billions in aid and has somehow not managed to provide basic needs for the Gaza people.”
The Gaza Strip, being an occupied by Israel, is not entirely under Hamas control. All aid to Gaza goes to Israel first, then Israel decides what goes in and comes out…everything. Anything Gaza does without Israeli permission like dig a well, or upgrade a power plant- Israel destroys.

“Do you know about the tunnel network beneath Gaza and where the building materials came from?” The materials came from the rubble left behind by Israeli airstrikes.

“Have you asked how Hamas is a world leader in producing death rates? Most countries start with an estimate then the figure increases as more bodies are found. Like the Israeli figures.” No idea what sort of aspersion you are trying to cast here.

“Israel built walls/fences to protect from terrorist incursions and were criticised for it. Hamas then did exactly what Israel had been saying it needed protection from and they’re being criticised for not being proportionate.” Israel was rightly criticised for the encircling high tech barrier manned with remote control machine guns around Gaza that kills any living thing that gets too close to the wall and the blockade of Gaza which predates Hamas coming to power.

“Hamas knew what the Israeli reaction would be and still they went ahead with it thereby sacrificing their people. They could have put down their weapons and adopted a negotiating position that wasn’t “From the river to the sea”. They’ve tried that and similarly Israel knew what would happen if they imprisoned over two million people under severe blockade since 2005 while conducting ethnic cleansing in the West Bank and then storming the Al Aqsa mosque during Friday night prayers with tear gas and rubber bullets would result in Hamas rockets. They knew at some point, someone would fight back.

“Do you expect Hamas to turn up to talks about a two state solution?” Yes they have done so before and unlike Israel upheld the cease fire that came with it.

“Do you know what their charter says?” Do you know what Nethanyu and Likud say?

“Are you concerned that Hezbollah may well launch attacks from Lebanon that Israel will have to defend? Or will that be Israel yet again bullying its neighbours?” Israel started sending attacks over the border into Lebanon- their first attack killed a group of journalists. Then they hit a Lebanese town. They knew Hezbollah would respond if they kept it up.

“Have you questioned why it just seems to be Israel who is been called on for a humanitarian ceasefire? Hamas has been boarding Israel since 7 October including, apparently, some of the kibbutz they decimated on that day.” Because Hamas has asked for and offered a cease fire repeatedly

Thank you for this detailed post! I thought nothing would shock me anymore but there has been so much outright nonsense on MN about this recently.

I've noticed a particularly popular theme now seems to be incessant whataboutery and loads of faux questions like in the post you replied to. I guess banking on nobody bothering to reply to answer them, so thank you to you who did.

WhiteHorseSpirit · 27/10/2023 14:33

SomeCatFromJapan · 27/10/2023 14:30

Hamas could not have built bomb shelters for one. And for two, you think Israel would allow it?

They managed to build plenty of tunnels though.

In secret. And frankly that liminal land couldn’t support bomb shelters for 2.3m without sinking into the sea.

Dulra · 27/10/2023 14:32

Lolapusht · 27/10/2023 14:03

You need to separate Gaza out as it is not occupied by Israel. It is controlled by Hamas. It has received millions if not billions in aid and has somehow not managed to provide basic needs for the Gaza people.

Do you know about the tunnel network beneath Gaza and where the building materials came from?

Have you asked how Hamas is a world leader in producing death rates? Most countries start with an estimate then the figure increases as more bodies are found. Like the Israeli figures.

Not all the terrorists on 7 October were in Hamas. A large number of civilians joined in in the attacks.

Israel built walls/fences to protect from terrorist incursions and were criticised for it. Hamas then did exactly what Israel had been saying it needed protection from and they’re being criticised for not being proportionate.

Hamas knew what the Israeli reaction would be and still they went ahead with it thereby sacrificing their people. They could have put down their weapons and adopted a negotiating position that wasn’t “From the river to the sea”.

Do you expect Hamas to turn up to talks about a two state solution? Do you know what their charter says? Do you know that Hamas is different to Fatah and when they took power they killed Fatah members?

Are you concerned that Hezbollah may well launch attacks from Lebanon that Israel will have to defend? Or will that be Israel yet again bullying its neighbours?

Have you questioned why it just seems to be Israel who is been called on for a humanitarian ceasefire? Hamas has been boarding Israel since 7 October including, apparently, some of the kibbutz they decimated on that day.

Lots of questions. I don’t have the answer to a lot of things but I do know that Hamas had to a lot more than Israel to help broker peace in the region.

(cue lots of lovely posts condemning me for my hideous Nazi views 🙄)

The tunnels? Yes I know about them. They're the tunnels an Israeli diplomat in Ireland accused the Irish of helping Hamas fund them because our government and President dared criticise the Israeli governments bombings of Gaza and breaking international human rights law

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/senior-israeli-diplomat-suggests-ireland-is-funding-hamas-tunnels-in-deleted-post/a1859848361.html

Senior Israeli diplomat suggests Ireland is funding Hamas tunnels in deleted post

An Israeli diplomat based in Dublin suggested Ireland is funding Hamas in a now deleted post on X, formerly Twitter.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/senior-israeli-diplomat-suggests-ireland-is-funding-hamas-tunnels-in-deleted-post/a1859848361.html

SomeCatFromJapan · 27/10/2023 14:30

Hamas could not have built bomb shelters for one. And for two, you think Israel would allow it?

They managed to build plenty of tunnels though.

DottieMoon · 27/10/2023 14:29

Lolapusht · 27/10/2023 14:15

Israel isn’t doing this because their government is more right-wing. They’re doing it because Hamas terrorists invaded their country, massacred 1400 people and took over 200 hostages.

Hamas does need to be dealt with but until they stop hiding behind their civilians, Palestinian civilians will be killed.

Show quote history

The Hamas attack on innocent civilians was horrendous and inexcusable.

THIS DOES NOT JUSTIFY ISRAEL MURDERING THOUSHANDS OF INNOCENT PALESTIANIAN CIVILIIANS.

Regardless of Hamas hiding in civilian areas for protection, Israel made the decision to continuously bomb densely populated areas knowing that thousands of innocent people would die. That is murder. They are no better than Hamas. Both meet the definition of terrorists. Israel have murdered over 7000 civilians, 3000 of those being children. That is not defence, it's genocide. You cannot blame Hamas for Israel despicable actions.

WhiteHorseSpirit · 27/10/2023 14:28

thatone · 27/10/2023 14:25

'Hamas does need to be dealt with but until they stop hiding behind their civilians, Palestinian civilians will be killed.'

I think this sentence sums up the tragedy really. A more civilised world would see that this is not right.

Yeah imagine saying that about the Israeli civilians killed by Hamas. Imagine saying, oh IDF use human shields, it’s their own fault civilians were killed in the attack. It’s a disgusting twist of logic no matter who you apply it to. Neither Hamas or IDF use civilians as human shields.

WhiteHorseSpirit · 27/10/2023 14:26

Lolapusht · 27/10/2023 14:10

I forgot about the human shields! They fire rockets from built up areas, store munitions in mosques, schools, hospitals. There’s are places that don’t have civilian buildings that could be used to fire rockets from, but no.

They could also allow civilians into the tunnel system, but no. Israel provides its population with bomb shelters. Hamas could have, but no. Missiles are more important.

Hamas could not have built bomb shelters for one. And for two, you think Israel would allow it? They would not. And for three, this is rather like a German blaming Churchill for all the London dead in the Blitz for not building enough bomb shelters like it is perfectly acceptable to bomb entire cities residential areas and is not Germany’s fault if there happen to be civilians killed…oh no…London you should have built more/better bomb shelters.