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Conflict in the Middle East

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Original poster

To have questions about occupied land in Gaza?

242 replies

Autumnalvibesofmellowness · 27/10/2023 11:59

This is in no way an attempt to diminish the atrocities of October 7th.

We hear that Jewish people across the world are scared and I understand why. Fully sympathise. We hear they want their hostages released and I fully support that too. We hear that Israeli foreign policy right now has to be brutal because Hamas and there's no point trying to negotiate because Hamas don't want a two state solution. I'm open to all this being true.

But then I hear that Palestinians have their homes destroyed, their orchards bulldozed and their land occupied by Israeli settlers living in places that are Palestinian. I hear that Palestinian families sometimes have lasers on their bodies where Israeli snipers are trained on them, not being fired at but targeted as an intimation tactic to get them to leave their homes. I've read that Gaza could afford its own water but consent to put in water supplies needs to be given by Israel and never is.

(I also don't understand why special forces can't deal with Hamas rather than bombing Gazan children into oblivion and have seen US military leaders saying the same - but that's another issue).

I genuinely don't understand. Why the provocation and incursion upon Palestinians trying to get on with their lives? Why not stop that if the goal is to feel safe and have a two state solution? Many posters here have recently responded to the reported Gazan casualties of war by suggesting that it's Hamas' fault for not giving back hostages. But about the hostages....if I was an Israeli settler on Palestinian land I would return to Israel or offer to do so in order to secure this, if we're talking about everything being done that could be done to get those people home. It might be negotiating with terrorists in a way but surely displacing people from their homes is also a kind of terrorism so this solution would be a mutual standing down? If all Israel wants is a two state solution they're losing nothing and everyone wins.

I guess I'm wondering why we can't talk about this openly and why there is ongoing provocation of Gaza. It seems like Biden and other leaders skirt round the edges of this and Israel finds it incendiary. It also seems like there are logical conclusions that can only be drawn very hesitantly because they might be found offensive when they're actually common sense. I don't even feel like I can talk about these issues in RL for fear of being written off as antisemitic. As much as I sympathise, I'm perplexed. For example, I sympathise deeply with Jewish children who have to hide their uniforms to feel safe - that should never happen and particularly not to a people group who have endured the Holocaust. But why doesn't the Jewish community do what it can to minimise the tensions by stopping Israeli settlers moving into Palestinian homes? How does Israel have the moral high ground when it looks like an ongoing land grab rather than either party having a goal for peace? I don't think Palestinian children should be homeless because they feel driven out of their community either - but it seems like that's not ok to say. Or is it?

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Alalalalalongalalalalalonglonglilong · 27/10/2023 20:38

Foodorder · 27/10/2023 17:31

Exactly, but now he's big on the international stage and apparently nothing he does can be criticised without accusations of antisemitism.

Show quote history

I worry that these faux accusations of antisemitism which shut down open criticism of Israel will lead to a new generation of very real antisemitism

  • when the world finally acknowledges that the Israeli government did indeed commit genocide while the world watched on. And sadly the victims of this hate will be the innocent, not just Israelis who oppose the war but Jewish people worldwide.
Fairtobefairohhhhhc · 27/10/2023 20:21

@Echobelly I understand that. I'm muslim, wear a hijab and visually muslim and had my first hate encounter yesterday, albeit minor. Shook me up though.

I hope your day goes well and try not to worry

Housechat · 27/10/2023 20:12

@Echobelly - I really feel for you. I hope you have a safe visit to the synagogue this weekend.

Echobelly · 27/10/2023 20:05

@Fairtobefairohhhhhc - thanks. I've not experienced anything but tomorrow I'm going to synagogue for the first time since this all kicked off (due to be being away/other stuff going on) and I'd be lying if I said I won't be a little more alert than usual on our walk there.

Fairtobefairohhhhhc · 27/10/2023 19:13

Exactly @ketchup07070 it's horrendous. Israel are like mice. They know what they are doing is the worst things you can imagine. So they need to shut the world off to do it!

ketchup07070 · 27/10/2023 19:12

I don't think there will be any news for a while. All mobile phone coverage and internet coverage has been cut while Israel ramps up the bombing and expands the ground operation. I can't see how there can be any communication with the outside world.

Fairtobefairohhhhhc · 27/10/2023 19:11

I've said it on other threads @Autumnalvibesofmellowness it's not jews. It's israel as a government state. Yes Jews live there. But many residents aren't practicing Jews. You can't blame the Jewish community just as you can't blame the Muslim community even though the largest population of gaza are muslim

donquixotedelamancha · 27/10/2023 19:10

I genuinely cannot see how we can support the Jewish community in the way they need and deserve if elements within the Jewish community are dehumanising another people group in a way that blinds the world to the tragedy of thousands of children dying. Surely we just end up with a new holocaust.

The Jewish community are doing nothing of the sort. Nor are the Muslim community responsible for the atrocities of Hammas. YABVVU at best to talk in this way.

The Israeli government and military are who you have a problem with. They don't want a tow state solution. Jews are not responsible for the actions of the state of Israel.

Housechat · 27/10/2023 19:09

@Autumnalvibesofmellowness - The Jewish people are not one large homogeneous group of people. By all means criticise Israeli government actions, call out abhorrent views but I am troubled by your comments about not supporting “the Jewish community” for the thoughts and actions of some Jewish people and the leaders of Israel.

Fairtobefairohhhhhc · 27/10/2023 19:09

@Echobelly I assure you, I believe you. And most Jews don't share the same ideology as Israel. And most of the Muslim world know this. I'm sorry if you have experienced any negativity or anything that has upset you. X

Echobelly · 27/10/2023 19:07

I think that you recognise that those are elements and not the whole community really. One thing that makes me feel furious in all this (and it's about the most minor thing there is in all this) is that as a Jew I may be painted to some people who doesn't see Palestinians as human and who doesn't believe they should have a safe and peaceful home.... which is not what I believe at all. But I can't deny it's what some of my co-religionists do believe, or try to use to justify the situation.

Fairtobefairohhhhhc · 27/10/2023 19:07

20 years from now we will all be sat hearing and watching talks where leaks come out against Israel like we do 911 and many other things. We will see.

Maireas · 27/10/2023 19:04

That's an interesting point, @AccountsConsult . Also, not everyone wants a democracy.

Fairtobefairohhhhhc · 27/10/2023 19:04

Does it really matter what the history is. We are literally watching a live genocide on TV right now. Who gives a flying monkeys what it's about or why any more. Those poor children and basically the whole of gaza are innocent souls and we, as in the world, have failed them. My heart actually hurts watching this. Then I feel guilty because I'm in my safe home with my children and I'm upset and that's also not doing anything.

Does no one else not get upset watching all these things or have you all only watched the western media? Has anyone actually had a look at a Palestinians isntagram or Palestinian account motaz_azaiza? Or does everyone watch the news and when Israel say they have conducted one of their checks or they release andtatement that is a lie, you just believe them because they are Israel?

I'm sorry I'm really upset right now so probably not coming across very well.

Maireas · 27/10/2023 19:04

That doesn't sound like a good book to read! I've read a few that are more informative and humane.

Autumnalvibesofmellowness · 27/10/2023 18:59

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AccountsConsult · 27/10/2023 18:04

HipHipWhoRay · 27/10/2023 13:43

We all mostly know what the problems are but what is the solution? Hamas don’t want a two state solution, they want to obliterate Israel and Jews. Israeli govt have become more right wing, and behaviour in West Bank sounds appalling, but this is specifically about Gaza. You can’t negotiate with Hamas. I assume the only option is to militarily remove Hamas, clear tunnels etc and then impose some kind of international governance to establish Palestine as a functioning democratic country with infrastructure. Will take generations. The UN let this happen on their watch too (arms being kept in UN hospitals, schools etc). They had the knowledge and authority to speak up internationally. It’s just such a mess.

I agree with you up to removing Hamas. But democracy is a very western concept that isn’t accepted in the Arab world. To have a democracy, you have to separate state and church. Democracy works on people electing a government, not god choosing a leader. That conceptually just isn’t acceptable - religion and governance are interlinked. You can’t impose a foreign system as Bush found out in Iraq.

Housechat · 27/10/2023 17:43

@TheWayTheLightFalls - I wasn’t asking you to, if only it were so easy! I just found your post equally sweeping and a tad patronising so I thought I would respond to your points.

TheWayTheLightFalls · 27/10/2023 17:37

That’s all absolutely valid imo @Housechat . I’m not seeking the find peace in the middle east on a Friday afternoon Mumsnet thread. I was taking issue with the PP’s quite sweeping statement that Israel doesn’t want a two state solution. Historically they were the one of the two in agreement with negotiating towards it. Again - absolutely fine to say that the approach underpinning the negotiation was flawed from the Palestinian POV or thag xyz would have made it unworkable, but sweeping statements help no one.

ketchup07070 · 27/10/2023 17:35

@Housechat I did just see a headline that 250 British lawyers have called on the UK government to press for a ceasefire, and that there are breaches of IHL being committed. I don't know if the government will pay any attention.

Foodorder · 27/10/2023 17:31

Housechat · 27/10/2023 17:25

@Foodorder political and legal dire straits. There is a current criminal case against him

Exactly, but now he's big on the international stage and apparently nothing he does can be criticised without accusations of antisemitism.

Housechat · 27/10/2023 17:25

@Foodorder political and legal dire straits. There is a current criminal case against him

Maireas · 27/10/2023 17:25

I'm just reading about it and - like everything else in this situation - it's very complicated. I did not know about the UAR administration.

Efacsen · 27/10/2023 17:24

Foodorder · 27/10/2023 17:20

I was talking to a (Christian) Israeli friend earlier this week. Her mother was there when the fighting started, but managed to fly out to Cyprus and she still has cousins there. Her GPs lost their home in West Jeruselem when the land was divided.

Anyway she was saying the thing she's most furious about and that's not being reported, is that Netanyahu was in dire straights politically before all this started and she believes that to a large extent it has escalated the way it was to distract from that.

Saw some Israeli opinion polls earlier and he's doing really badly because of the intelligence failure

Housechat · 27/10/2023 17:24

@TheWayTheLightFalls - coming to the table and negotiating are not the same thing. Israel may come to the table but they certainly do not negotiate, not with Netanyahu in charge anyway. He famously does not want a two state solution. I can see why Palestinian leaders do not see the point if the Israeli government are refusing to go back to borders agreed previously and insist on taking more land in the West Bank.

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