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Conflict in the Middle East

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To have questions about occupied land in Gaza?

242 replies

Autumnalvibesofmellowness · 27/10/2023 11:59

This is in no way an attempt to diminish the atrocities of October 7th.

We hear that Jewish people across the world are scared and I understand why. Fully sympathise. We hear they want their hostages released and I fully support that too. We hear that Israeli foreign policy right now has to be brutal because Hamas and there's no point trying to negotiate because Hamas don't want a two state solution. I'm open to all this being true.

But then I hear that Palestinians have their homes destroyed, their orchards bulldozed and their land occupied by Israeli settlers living in places that are Palestinian. I hear that Palestinian families sometimes have lasers on their bodies where Israeli snipers are trained on them, not being fired at but targeted as an intimation tactic to get them to leave their homes. I've read that Gaza could afford its own water but consent to put in water supplies needs to be given by Israel and never is.

(I also don't understand why special forces can't deal with Hamas rather than bombing Gazan children into oblivion and have seen US military leaders saying the same - but that's another issue).

I genuinely don't understand. Why the provocation and incursion upon Palestinians trying to get on with their lives? Why not stop that if the goal is to feel safe and have a two state solution? Many posters here have recently responded to the reported Gazan casualties of war by suggesting that it's Hamas' fault for not giving back hostages. But about the hostages....if I was an Israeli settler on Palestinian land I would return to Israel or offer to do so in order to secure this, if we're talking about everything being done that could be done to get those people home. It might be negotiating with terrorists in a way but surely displacing people from their homes is also a kind of terrorism so this solution would be a mutual standing down? If all Israel wants is a two state solution they're losing nothing and everyone wins.

I guess I'm wondering why we can't talk about this openly and why there is ongoing provocation of Gaza. It seems like Biden and other leaders skirt round the edges of this and Israel finds it incendiary. It also seems like there are logical conclusions that can only be drawn very hesitantly because they might be found offensive when they're actually common sense. I don't even feel like I can talk about these issues in RL for fear of being written off as antisemitic. As much as I sympathise, I'm perplexed. For example, I sympathise deeply with Jewish children who have to hide their uniforms to feel safe - that should never happen and particularly not to a people group who have endured the Holocaust. But why doesn't the Jewish community do what it can to minimise the tensions by stopping Israeli settlers moving into Palestinian homes? How does Israel have the moral high ground when it looks like an ongoing land grab rather than either party having a goal for peace? I don't think Palestinian children should be homeless because they feel driven out of their community either - but it seems like that's not ok to say. Or is it?

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FlutterbyWhiskers · 27/10/2023 22:18

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FlutterbyWhiskers · 27/10/2023 22:18

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duchiebun · 27/10/2023 22:15

Seeing how the UK voted at the UN, I feel disgusted.

Why, they could never vote against & abstaining sends a message.

duchiebun · 27/10/2023 22:14

Just because people are against the actions of Israel that does not make them an anti semite.

My understanding is that some question why Israel is held to a different standard vs say the UK or the US & that’s where the antisemitism comes in.

FlutterbyWhiskers · 27/10/2023 22:14

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SomeCatFromJapan · 27/10/2023 22:12

I'm feeling quite uncomfortable with some of the sentiments being expressed on this thread, and in fact in this whole section.

That is a separate issue though. People suddenly seem to be emboldened to start making odd insinuations about Jewish people.

Autumnalvibesofmellowness · 27/10/2023 22:10

earlyr1ser · 27/10/2023 21:22

Funny thing is - Israel doesn't need your permission, or mine, to do what it thinks necessary. You'll find that the British stopped ruling that part of the world a long, long time ago. Have a pink gin and a lie-down.

I'm not under the impression that Israel needs permission. It needs arms and over time, it will need the support of the international community. The electorate's views will eventually matter. And I don't drink pink gin in response to infant deaths. But I do realise the Israeli government is acting in an unfettered and unaccountable manner tonight and there's nothing we can immediately do.

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Autumnalvibesofmellowness · 27/10/2023 22:07

SomeCatFromJapan · 27/10/2023 21:20

I'm feeling quite uncomfortable with some of the sentiments being expressed on this thread, and in fact in this whole section.

I don't know that feeling uncomfortable is in itself a sign of a problem. I felt uncomfortable reading previous threads and starting this thread. What I am not going to do is be silent because you feel uncomfortable because children on both sides of this are dying and frankly sone of us are confused about what is actually happening.

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Autumnalvibesofmellowness · 27/10/2023 22:05

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Can we donate? Let our mp know our concerns? Try to understand, as I'm doing?

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FlutterbyWhiskers · 27/10/2023 22:04

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Autumnalvibesofmellowness · 27/10/2023 22:04

donquixotedelamancha · 27/10/2023 21:37

What I would like to know is: who am I talking to when responding to the myriad posters on threads like these who are highly supportive of Israeli military retaliation and claim to be Jewish?

Maybe everyone who argues against you is Jewish. So what? Only a moron or a racist would think that means all Jews think the same.

Jewish people have as varied views as any other group. It should be bloody obvious why Jews might be (on average) predisposed to support Israel but that doesn't make them a hive mind.

If you don't want to be part of the problem then stop talking about 'Jewish people support...'

There is just no excuse for it.

Quite honestly, I would have no problem with this if I didn't feel that concern for Palestinians and criticism of Israeli foreign policy is shut down on the grounds that the poster is Jewish and finds any criticism antisemitic or lacking in concern for the Jewish position to the point of being anti-Semitic. Your response makes me more likely to conclude that it would be ok to acknowledge that I respect the poster is Jewish but it really makes no difference to the general points being made. Does that seem reasonable?

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FlutterbyWhiskers · 27/10/2023 22:03

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Autumnalvibesofmellowness · 27/10/2023 22:01

Dinkydaisy1 · 27/10/2023 21:12

To be honest, not really. One of the agreements is that the groups focus on friendship and understanding, but not politics. We don't talk about Israel and Palestine.

We have had events with Rabbis - incl Chief Rabbi Ephraim (who is very pro Israel), but again these are about generic "peace" and understanding. There is no direct convo and there are almost no Palestinians in these groups. And if they are, again, we don't talk about Israel. And even now, when the 3 Muslim, Christian and Jewish ministers issued a statement after the Oct 7attacks, it was to promote solidarity with the Jewish victims first and foremost.

Yes I can see why there's no real need to get into it.

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Echobelly · 27/10/2023 21:57

@Fairtobefairohhhhhc - it is a strange and horrible situation whereby Jews are at risk from outlying Muslim extremists and Muslims are at risk from far right types who don't give a toss about Jews but want any excuse to attack Muslims. Why solidarity is so important for all of us who want a just and peaceful solution and why it's important others recognise this solidarity can and does exist.

donquixotedelamancha · 27/10/2023 21:37

What I would like to know is: who am I talking to when responding to the myriad posters on threads like these who are highly supportive of Israeli military retaliation and claim to be Jewish?

Maybe everyone who argues against you is Jewish. So what? Only a moron or a racist would think that means all Jews think the same.

Jewish people have as varied views as any other group. It should be bloody obvious why Jews might be (on average) predisposed to support Israel but that doesn't make them a hive mind.

If you don't want to be part of the problem then stop talking about 'Jewish people support...'

There is just no excuse for it.

earlyr1ser · 27/10/2023 21:22

Funny thing is - Israel doesn't need your permission, or mine, to do what it thinks necessary. You'll find that the British stopped ruling that part of the world a long, long time ago. Have a pink gin and a lie-down.

SomeCatFromJapan · 27/10/2023 21:20

I'm feeling quite uncomfortable with some of the sentiments being expressed on this thread, and in fact in this whole section.

Dinkydaisy1 · 27/10/2023 21:12

Autumnalvibesofmellowness · 27/10/2023 21:04

But surely you have to be able to speak freely at some point?

It's wonderful that this group exists.

To be honest, not really. One of the agreements is that the groups focus on friendship and understanding, but not politics. We don't talk about Israel and Palestine.

We have had events with Rabbis - incl Chief Rabbi Ephraim (who is very pro Israel), but again these are about generic "peace" and understanding. There is no direct convo and there are almost no Palestinians in these groups. And if they are, again, we don't talk about Israel. And even now, when the 3 Muslim, Christian and Jewish ministers issued a statement after the Oct 7attacks, it was to promote solidarity with the Jewish victims first and foremost.

Autumnalvibesofmellowness · 27/10/2023 21:04

Dinkydaisy1 · 27/10/2023 21:02

I chair the local chapter of an national Jewish muslim organisation. The Jewish women I work with are wonderful - joined events, local support for initiatives, quest for "peace" and friendship. But when it comes to these "conflicts", support is always for Israel to defend itself, no matter what, and the word Palestine is rarely used in discourse, as if it a word that will make us all spontaneously combust.

But surely you have to be able to speak freely at some point?

It's wonderful that this group exists.

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Autumnalvibesofmellowness · 27/10/2023 21:03

And why do Jewish people not governed by that state feel so freely able to dictate that the Western world support a particular regime they have not even personally voted for and don't live under? And why can we not engage with them about this position? If someone is going to draw a clear line of connection between their son's safety at a Jewish London school and some failure of the west in relation to our attitude to the Israeli government, why are they able to step away from personal involvement when challenged despite having claimed personal involvement when criticising the British /US administrations?

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Dinkydaisy1 · 27/10/2023 21:02

Autumnalvibesofmellowness · 27/10/2023 20:54

I'm keen to get that right. You would like me to refer to Israelis rather than Jews when talking about the people living in Israel?

Just thinking aloud - how does the Jewish community globally feel about what the Israeli government is doing? Is there widespread support or are there tensions?

I chair the local chapter of an national Jewish muslim organisation. The Jewish women I work with are wonderful - joined events, local support for initiatives, quest for "peace" and friendship. But when it comes to these "conflicts", support is always for Israel to defend itself, no matter what, and the word Palestine is rarely used in discourse, as if it a word that will make us all spontaneously combust.

Autumnalvibesofmellowness · 27/10/2023 20:59

donquixotedelamancha · 27/10/2023 19:10

I genuinely cannot see how we can support the Jewish community in the way they need and deserve if elements within the Jewish community are dehumanising another people group in a way that blinds the world to the tragedy of thousands of children dying. Surely we just end up with a new holocaust.

The Jewish community are doing nothing of the sort. Nor are the Muslim community responsible for the atrocities of Hammas. YABVVU at best to talk in this way.

The Israeli government and military are who you have a problem with. They don't want a tow state solution. Jews are not responsible for the actions of the state of Israel.

I can fully get on board with that.

What I would like to know is: who am I talking to when responding to the myriad posters on threads like these who are highly supportive of Israeli military retaliation and claim to be Jewish? While not responsible for the actions of the state of Israel, they do seem to be the people of that state and claim to share the suffering of the people of that state. Surely they are capable of influencing their democratically elected government, if not right now then in the future? And if they have nothing to do with the Israeli government - no connection even as a member of the electorate - whose interests is the Israeli government actually representing?

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Housechat · 27/10/2023 20:57

@Autumnalvibesofmellowness - not all Israelis are Jewish not all Jewish people are Israeli.

There will be no general consensus amongst Jewish people globally, like with all ethnicities and religions - there will be lots of different feelings and thoughts.

Autumnalvibesofmellowness · 27/10/2023 20:54

Fairtobefairohhhhhc · 27/10/2023 19:11

I've said it on other threads @Autumnalvibesofmellowness it's not jews. It's israel as a government state. Yes Jews live there. But many residents aren't practicing Jews. You can't blame the Jewish community just as you can't blame the Muslim community even though the largest population of gaza are muslim

I'm keen to get that right. You would like me to refer to Israelis rather than Jews when talking about the people living in Israel?

Just thinking aloud - how does the Jewish community globally feel about what the Israeli government is doing? Is there widespread support or are there tensions?

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Alalalalalongalalalalalonglonglilong · 27/10/2023 20:40

Apologies for strange paragraphs above!

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