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Conflict in the Middle East

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Original poster

To have questions about occupied land in Gaza?

242 replies

Autumnalvibesofmellowness · 27/10/2023 11:59

This is in no way an attempt to diminish the atrocities of October 7th.

We hear that Jewish people across the world are scared and I understand why. Fully sympathise. We hear they want their hostages released and I fully support that too. We hear that Israeli foreign policy right now has to be brutal because Hamas and there's no point trying to negotiate because Hamas don't want a two state solution. I'm open to all this being true.

But then I hear that Palestinians have their homes destroyed, their orchards bulldozed and their land occupied by Israeli settlers living in places that are Palestinian. I hear that Palestinian families sometimes have lasers on their bodies where Israeli snipers are trained on them, not being fired at but targeted as an intimation tactic to get them to leave their homes. I've read that Gaza could afford its own water but consent to put in water supplies needs to be given by Israel and never is.

(I also don't understand why special forces can't deal with Hamas rather than bombing Gazan children into oblivion and have seen US military leaders saying the same - but that's another issue).

I genuinely don't understand. Why the provocation and incursion upon Palestinians trying to get on with their lives? Why not stop that if the goal is to feel safe and have a two state solution? Many posters here have recently responded to the reported Gazan casualties of war by suggesting that it's Hamas' fault for not giving back hostages. But about the hostages....if I was an Israeli settler on Palestinian land I would return to Israel or offer to do so in order to secure this, if we're talking about everything being done that could be done to get those people home. It might be negotiating with terrorists in a way but surely displacing people from their homes is also a kind of terrorism so this solution would be a mutual standing down? If all Israel wants is a two state solution they're losing nothing and everyone wins.

I guess I'm wondering why we can't talk about this openly and why there is ongoing provocation of Gaza. It seems like Biden and other leaders skirt round the edges of this and Israel finds it incendiary. It also seems like there are logical conclusions that can only be drawn very hesitantly because they might be found offensive when they're actually common sense. I don't even feel like I can talk about these issues in RL for fear of being written off as antisemitic. As much as I sympathise, I'm perplexed. For example, I sympathise deeply with Jewish children who have to hide their uniforms to feel safe - that should never happen and particularly not to a people group who have endured the Holocaust. But why doesn't the Jewish community do what it can to minimise the tensions by stopping Israeli settlers moving into Palestinian homes? How does Israel have the moral high ground when it looks like an ongoing land grab rather than either party having a goal for peace? I don't think Palestinian children should be homeless because they feel driven out of their community either - but it seems like that's not ok to say. Or is it?

OP posts:
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Original poster
Autumnalvibesofmellowness · 28/10/2023 08:42

earlyr1ser · 27/10/2023 23:29

Downing a gin would be a more coherent response than telling Jews to put their house in order or face another holocaust. Which is precisely what you said. Your tears won't save a single infant, and you know it.

You misunderstood me completely. Not being able to acknowledge war crimes will - and is - leading to a Holocaust involving a different people group.

If Israel were being bombarded like this I would say we need to do everything possible to avoid further deaths there.

I feel the problem is that the Western world is willing for many Palestinian children to die in order to secure their influence in the region through Israel.

OP posts:
Original poster
Autumnalvibesofmellowness · 28/10/2023 08:38

duchiebun · 27/10/2023 22:14

Just because people are against the actions of Israel that does not make them an anti semite.

My understanding is that some question why Israel is held to a different standard vs say the UK or the US & that’s where the antisemitism comes in.

If the UK did this to, say, Northern Ireland following an act of terrorism there would be an international outcry. The difference being the US would condemn it.

OP posts:
SomeCatFromJapan · 28/10/2023 08:31

@duchiebun I think people think it's not as bad as they didn't get to see the death and injury plat out in insta so therefore it must not have happened.

I paid attention at the time, I was well aware of the enormous civilian death toll, and how a functioning country was turned to rubble.
And then there was Abu Ghraib.

I am genuinely surprised that people think this is the worst event ever, unfortunately it is far down the scale.

Housechat · 28/10/2023 07:51

@duchiebun - Well given that Russia has killed and poisoned British citizens on British soil and we did sweet FA, that argument of your falls down a little there but it’s also not a fair comparison as there is not a massive power imbalance there. I suppose the closest still very imperfect comparison would be if in response to the IRA the UK besieged the entirety of Ireland, forced the entire population into Cork, cut off all supplies and then bombed it into oblivion. Yeah I would expect the world to be horrified at that.

The US is forever accused of knowing 9/11 would happen or that it was an inside job, famously so, so not sure why it would be different here. Conspiracy theorists going to theorise.

There is no higher standard here, what Israel is doing is really that bad and despite being asked to tone it down even by its allies, it is just doubling down. That’s what happens when you have ultra nationalists in charge of a country. Hamas have lied and said there is no hostages, Israel have lied and said there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

I am done debating this with you now. You can what if and defend Israel all you like. Israel’s right to defend itself does not extend to committing genocide. The atrocities the Jewish people have suffered does not provide Israel with carte Blanche to destroy Palestinians.

duchiebun · 28/10/2023 01:10

Oh & the whole higher standard thing also encompasses the narrative that there are no hostages or that Israel knew it was going to happen but deliberately let it happen. The accusations of propaganda (what conflict hasn’t involved propaganda?) etc

duchiebun · 28/10/2023 01:03

retaliate not retake!

duchiebun · 28/10/2023 01:02

The UK and the US did crap things so now Israel gets to do it as well?

Where have I said that? I simply said you can’t ignore what the West has done & expect foreign policy to be different.

The US and the UK have also been rightly criticised by the world they have & yet the wars went on for years.

it’s still not holding Israel to a higher standard to expect them not to shit all over International Law.

Imo Israel is held to a higher standard & I do not believe that if Russia or another “enemy”
carried out a similar attack on the UK & took hostages that the government wouldn’t retake. You can disagree though.

Has the UK government acknowledged that Israel is breaking international law?

Housechat · 28/10/2023 00:45

@duchiebun - I really don’t understand your argument here? The UK and the US did crap things so now Israel gets to do it as well? The US and the UK have also been rightly criticised by the world, I am not sure why Israel is immune.

You can what if this all day long, drag up every conflict you like, it’s still not holding Israel to a higher standard to expect them not to shit all over International Law.

duchiebun · 28/10/2023 00:43

@needtonamechangeforthis1 I was confused by your And learning from it means preventing it happening again

So who is going to prevent it? As I asked before what does this actually look like in reality?

duchiebun · 28/10/2023 00:41

@Housechat logically how do you think so many civilians died during the war on Terror? You don’t think it was responsible for the decimation of public services, food shortages, increased poverty, spread of diseases? You think the countries have recovered now? You think the citizens aren’t still dealing with the aftermath that will impact generations to come.

I never said Isreal was doing the right thing & I hope there is a ceasefire. I just don’t understand what people mean when they say the expect the stance of the UK gov to change or as you said you wouldn’t expect the UK to retaliate when we have lived through the retaliation.

needtonamechangeforthis1 · 28/10/2023 00:40

duchiebun · 28/10/2023 00:24

Yes it happened and I don't think we will ever know the true number of innocent victims.

But we do know the numbers were big & disproportionate

Have we learned from it though?

And learning from it means preventing it happening again.

I would think learning from it means staying out of it so how do you think the gov should prevent it? what does that actually look like? & it would mean going against our own foreign policy.

What do you mean by staying out of it? We are not in it!
There is no question of British military involvement in this conflict. We have abstained from voting on a ceasefire. Our government is still actively supporting Isreal. How much more out of it do you want?

StellaGibson2022 · 28/10/2023 00:40

crumblingschools · 27/10/2023 13:27

Surely OP is talking about Israelis taking over areas of Palestine

That’s how I read it too

Housechat · 28/10/2023 00:33

I notice even the UK government has started to soften their message now and talk about International Humanitarian Law and protecting Palestinians civilians, interesting.

Housechat · 28/10/2023 00:28

@duchiebun - I am not ignoring it, I expect the UK to also uphold International Law and get very angry when they do not. Although I am struggling to remember a time, in my lifetime anyway, that the UK imprisoned 2 million people in a small area, cut off water, electricity and food, forced them into an even smaller area then bombed the living daylights out of civilians whilst shouting and screaming at anyone who says maybe this isn’t the right thing to do. As soon as I do though I will equally as angry.

I genuinely don’t know how anyone with an ounce of humanity can go to bed tonight content that Israel is doing the right thing here. Its representatives are looking increasingly deranged screaming at anyone who dares mention humanitarian aid or a ceasefire.

duchiebun · 28/10/2023 00:24

Yes it happened and I don't think we will ever know the true number of innocent victims.

But we do know the numbers were big & disproportionate

Have we learned from it though?

And learning from it means preventing it happening again.

I would think learning from it means staying out of it so how do you think the gov should prevent it? what does that actually look like? & it would mean going against our own foreign policy.

needtonamechangeforthis1 · 28/10/2023 00:14

duchiebun · 28/10/2023 00:08

@needtonamechangeforthis1 it still happened though didn’t it?

Hundreds of thousands of civilians died directly & I think indirectly the death toll is in the millions.

@Housechat

And no, I would not expect the UK to respond the way Israel has to a terrorist attack

I don’t understand? We’ve seen the response, the war on Terror…

Yes it happened and I don't think we will ever know the true number of innocent victims.

Nor do we know what would have happened had we not acted.

Mistakes were made. I didn't support the war on terror either.

We can't change what happened. But we can sure as hell learn from it! And learning from it means preventing it happening again.

duchiebun · 28/10/2023 00:11

I won’t pretend the US and the UK haven’t committed war crimes of course they have, but that doesn’t mean that Israel gets to tear up the Geneva Convention and we have to look on a say ah well, our governments aren’t perfect either.

My point was the different standards & you can’t ignore UK foreign policy re terrorism which means we stand with the US.

duchiebun · 28/10/2023 00:08

@needtonamechangeforthis1 it still happened though didn’t it?

Hundreds of thousands of civilians died directly & I think indirectly the death toll is in the millions.

@Housechat

And no, I would not expect the UK to respond the way Israel has to a terrorist attack

I don’t understand? We’ve seen the response, the war on Terror…

needtonamechangeforthis1 · 28/10/2023 00:06

earlyr1ser · 27/10/2023 23:29

Downing a gin would be a more coherent response than telling Jews to put their house in order or face another holocaust. Which is precisely what you said. Your tears won't save a single infant, and you know it.

That's not what the OP said at all!

The comment about the holocaust was about what Isreal is doing to Palestine not about Jews facing another holocaust.

The nazis saw Jews as subhuman and the result was the holocaust.
But it is clear that Isreal see Palestinians as subhuman and are inflicting genocide against them.

Housechat · 27/10/2023 23:59

@duchiebun - I won’t pretend the US and the UK haven’t committed war crimes of course they have, but that doesn’t mean that Israel gets to tear up the Geneva Convention and we have to look on a say ah well, our governments aren’t perfect either.

Expecting a country to not besiege a whole nation, starve its people and kill its civilians over the actions of a few, is not holding it to a higher standard. This is not a proportionate response and to pretend it is, is to admit that Palestinian lives are worth less than Jewish lives because that’s what this boils down to for the Israeli government isn’t it. That is very very clear to me when I hear Israeli politicians and IDF commanders on TV talking about Palestinians as if they are subhuman. How many Palestinians have to die before Israel has “defended itself” sufficiently?

And no, I would not expect the UK to respond the way Israel has to a terrorist attack, and if it did I would be one of the first people jumping up and down shouting that it was wrong. I wouldn’t be on the internet saying it’s not fair, we have a right to commit genocide to defend ourselves, you are all just picking on us.

needtonamechangeforthis1 · 27/10/2023 23:57

duchiebun · 27/10/2023 23:06

@Housechat take the War on Terror, how many civilians died or were displaced? Look at the Troubles in the UK. What do you think the US or the UK would do if a country they oppressed (there are many) carried out the attacks & took hostages? What response do you think the public would expect?

There was huge public outrage at the way we conducted ourselves during the war on terror!

And I don't remember us barrelling in and dropping bombs indiscriminately in the way Israel is.

But any civilian casualties are too many. In any conflict

earlyr1ser · 27/10/2023 23:29

Downing a gin would be a more coherent response than telling Jews to put their house in order or face another holocaust. Which is precisely what you said. Your tears won't save a single infant, and you know it.

duchiebun · 27/10/2023 23:06

@Housechat take the War on Terror, how many civilians died or were displaced? Look at the Troubles in the UK. What do you think the US or the UK would do if a country they oppressed (there are many) carried out the attacks & took hostages? What response do you think the public would expect?

donquixotedelamancha · 27/10/2023 22:57

Autumnalvibesofmellowness · 27/10/2023 22:04

Quite honestly, I would have no problem with this if I didn't feel that concern for Palestinians and criticism of Israeli foreign policy is shut down on the grounds that the poster is Jewish and finds any criticism antisemitic or lacking in concern for the Jewish position to the point of being anti-Semitic. Your response makes me more likely to conclude that it would be ok to acknowledge that I respect the poster is Jewish but it really makes no difference to the general points being made. Does that seem reasonable?

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I don't think there is anything antisemitic about criticising the behaviour of Israel (and I know some people use that to avoid any criticism of Israel, I've been subject to it myself).

I do think it's getting very close to antisemitism the way you are criticising Jewish people for Israel's behaviour and implying that all Jews support Israel. Idiots on the other side,arguing in bad faith, don't justify that.

This whole thing is horrific. There is no right side. If you aren't being careful and nuanced then you add to the problem.

Housechat · 27/10/2023 22:29

@duchiebun In what way is Israel being held to a different standard?

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