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Conflict in the Middle East

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To have questions about occupied land in Gaza?

242 replies

Autumnalvibesofmellowness · 27/10/2023 11:59

This is in no way an attempt to diminish the atrocities of October 7th.

We hear that Jewish people across the world are scared and I understand why. Fully sympathise. We hear they want their hostages released and I fully support that too. We hear that Israeli foreign policy right now has to be brutal because Hamas and there's no point trying to negotiate because Hamas don't want a two state solution. I'm open to all this being true.

But then I hear that Palestinians have their homes destroyed, their orchards bulldozed and their land occupied by Israeli settlers living in places that are Palestinian. I hear that Palestinian families sometimes have lasers on their bodies where Israeli snipers are trained on them, not being fired at but targeted as an intimation tactic to get them to leave their homes. I've read that Gaza could afford its own water but consent to put in water supplies needs to be given by Israel and never is.

(I also don't understand why special forces can't deal with Hamas rather than bombing Gazan children into oblivion and have seen US military leaders saying the same - but that's another issue).

I genuinely don't understand. Why the provocation and incursion upon Palestinians trying to get on with their lives? Why not stop that if the goal is to feel safe and have a two state solution? Many posters here have recently responded to the reported Gazan casualties of war by suggesting that it's Hamas' fault for not giving back hostages. But about the hostages....if I was an Israeli settler on Palestinian land I would return to Israel or offer to do so in order to secure this, if we're talking about everything being done that could be done to get those people home. It might be negotiating with terrorists in a way but surely displacing people from their homes is also a kind of terrorism so this solution would be a mutual standing down? If all Israel wants is a two state solution they're losing nothing and everyone wins.

I guess I'm wondering why we can't talk about this openly and why there is ongoing provocation of Gaza. It seems like Biden and other leaders skirt round the edges of this and Israel finds it incendiary. It also seems like there are logical conclusions that can only be drawn very hesitantly because they might be found offensive when they're actually common sense. I don't even feel like I can talk about these issues in RL for fear of being written off as antisemitic. As much as I sympathise, I'm perplexed. For example, I sympathise deeply with Jewish children who have to hide their uniforms to feel safe - that should never happen and particularly not to a people group who have endured the Holocaust. But why doesn't the Jewish community do what it can to minimise the tensions by stopping Israeli settlers moving into Palestinian homes? How does Israel have the moral high ground when it looks like an ongoing land grab rather than either party having a goal for peace? I don't think Palestinian children should be homeless because they feel driven out of their community either - but it seems like that's not ok to say. Or is it?

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feralunderclass · 29/10/2023 23:45

earlyr1ser · 29/10/2023 22:10

The French government has banned most pro-Palestinian protests due to its view that the movement has close links to the call for a global Islamic caliphate. Which, I am sure, is not a desire shared by most Muslims. Too bad that a handful of extremists can ruin things for everyone.

https://www.icct.nl/publication/hamas-global-jihad-impact-france

Edited

It would be interesting to know what % of those who attend marches/rallies/vigils in support of Palestine are Muslim. I'm quite sure the last thing the Stop the War coalition want is an Islamic State 😂. I'm so sick of people making any stand against occupation, human rights violations and genocide to be synonymous with wanting to join Hamas or to form a new CALIPHATE. It's just another diversionary tactic to distract from the crimes of the Israeli government. A LOT OF US CARE ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS!

feralunderclass · 29/10/2023 23:38

eardefender · 29/10/2023 19:21

My rudimentary understanding is that the Israelis bought the land that they now live on, prior to 1948. It is legally theirs. In 1948 they took more as there was a war against them on three sides. The two state solution was agreed to by Israel but not the palestinians therefore the whole lot is still Israel. Legally. The palestinians do not want a two state solution and want the lot hence the conflict. Israelis consider that they live in Israel and palestinians consider Israel to be occupied palestinian land.

Your rudimentary understanding is incorrect.

earlyr1ser · 29/10/2023 22:10

The French government has banned most pro-Palestinian protests due to its view that the movement has close links to the call for a global Islamic caliphate. Which, I am sure, is not a desire shared by most Muslims. Too bad that a handful of extremists can ruin things for everyone.

https://www.icct.nl/publication/hamas-global-jihad-impact-france

Hamas global jihad – An impact in France? 

On 13 October, a French teacher Dominique Bernard in Arras, France, was stabbed to death. Two other school workers were also stabbed and wounded. The attacker, a former student of the school, had pledged allegiance to the Islamic State and expressed “h...

https://www.icct.nl/publication/hamas-global-jihad-impact-france

earlyr1ser · 29/10/2023 21:55

Incidentally, excellent job "Dinky Daisy" on using this thread as a platform to display the value of free speech, and indeed the education of women. Would we enjoy all of this under Hamas rule, I wonder? Hope nobody on here ever has to find out.

earlyr1ser · 29/10/2023 21:52

Finkelstein ardently supported Mao as well btw, despite the mounting evidence of what was happening in China. But what are 13 million Chinese lives worth, eh? It wasn't Jewish people doing the killing, let alone in their own defence, so meh.

Dinkydaisy1 · 29/10/2023 19:32

eardefender · 29/10/2023 19:21

My rudimentary understanding is that the Israelis bought the land that they now live on, prior to 1948. It is legally theirs. In 1948 they took more as there was a war against them on three sides. The two state solution was agreed to by Israel but not the palestinians therefore the whole lot is still Israel. Legally. The palestinians do not want a two state solution and want the lot hence the conflict. Israelis consider that they live in Israel and palestinians consider Israel to be occupied palestinian land.

I would suggest you read The Birth of Israel by Simha Flappan, Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by lan Pappe (both Israeli authors) or Norman Finklestein about the birth of Israel and the myth of "buying land"

eardefender · 29/10/2023 19:21

My rudimentary understanding is that the Israelis bought the land that they now live on, prior to 1948. It is legally theirs. In 1948 they took more as there was a war against them on three sides. The two state solution was agreed to by Israel but not the palestinians therefore the whole lot is still Israel. Legally. The palestinians do not want a two state solution and want the lot hence the conflict. Israelis consider that they live in Israel and palestinians consider Israel to be occupied palestinian land.

daytriptovulcan · 29/10/2023 19:10

Netanyahu wants everyone in Gaza to move to Sinai in Egypt. Hence the border being held shut by Egypt. Its the strategic goals of his and of the right wing extremists and religious zealots hes in a coalition with.
He is very unpopular, and this whole disaster is a welcome distraction for his many detractors.

Ohlalalalala · 29/10/2023 18:33

Important. Please share!

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The petition on the bio.

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To have questions about occupied land in Gaza?
upinaballoon · 28/10/2023 21:20

FishBowlSwimmer · 28/10/2023 15:29

To be fair though there has been conflict in that area for thousands of years between the three Abrahamic religions. 'The Rock' is THE holy place for all three religions. God created the world from that very spot. Abraham received the ten commandments there (I think that's right? Please correct me if I'm wrong), Jesus Christ went there and said something prophetic, and Muhammed also received the word of God in this spot.

Historians agree the first two temples built were Jewish, now it's Muslim. Wars have been fought over this holy site and this is why the land is so sought after.

Edited

I believe that the rock is the one which Abraham took his son Isaac to, when he was supposed to kill him. God gave him the reprieve at the last moment.

Later on in the Old Testament, it was Moses who received the ten commandments, possibly in the Sinai (can't remember) but not at that Rock.

Now, look, just when I thought I'd get my hair washed and have a nice little read of my novel, I'll have to go find a Bible to check out where Moses was.
Mount where? Is there a Mount Sinai in the Sinai Desert? I went over there in a tourist bus, once, clutching a receptacle to me, in case I hadn't completely got rid of a nasty case of Gyppy Tummy.

FishBowlSwimmer · 28/10/2023 16:46

Dinkydaisy1 · 28/10/2023 16:20

Just a mild correction about why Jerusalem is important for Muslims -

Palestine has been the land of many, may Prophets, peace be upon them all - Abraham first migrated to PALESTINE, Lot was Palestinian as was David and his son Solomon, who lived and ruled from here.

The mihrab/prayer place of Prophet Zachary is here, and many miracles took place including the blessed birth of Jesus from his blessed mother Mary, and the attempt to crucify him.

Its ofcourse also the land where Moses brought his people, and where Talut triumphed over Goliath

Lastly, it was the first prayer direction for Muslims, which later changed to Makkah. The Prophet did not receive the Quran here, rather hes brought here and led all the Prophet's before him in prayer, cementing it as the holy place of all the Prophets of Islam.

Just some gen knowledge 😄

Thank you for writing this, it's very interesting and I appreciate you taking the time to explain.

SomeCatFromJapan · 28/10/2023 16:32

@Autumnalvibesofmellowness I would say it should be fine to criticise the Israeli government (or indeed any government) but not to deny Israel's right to exist, and to not deny the importance to many Jewish people globally of having a Jewish homeland.

I do think that where it becomes trickier is the discussion around Israel's right to defend itself - which it obviously has a right to, in common with any other country. Clearly at present there are many people disagreeing with the form that is taking and arguing that it is excessive. Again I don't think that viewpoint in itself should be offensive to anyone; no-one in their right mind wants to see children and families killed.

I do think a lot of the rhetoric using terms like settler-colonialist and questioning Israel's right to exist is unhelpful.

I've also seen many posts that put blame completely on Israel and seem to free Hamas of their portion of the blame for the current conflict.

Dinkydaisy1 · 28/10/2023 16:20

FishBowlSwimmer · 28/10/2023 15:29

To be fair though there has been conflict in that area for thousands of years between the three Abrahamic religions. 'The Rock' is THE holy place for all three religions. God created the world from that very spot. Abraham received the ten commandments there (I think that's right? Please correct me if I'm wrong), Jesus Christ went there and said something prophetic, and Muhammed also received the word of God in this spot.

Historians agree the first two temples built were Jewish, now it's Muslim. Wars have been fought over this holy site and this is why the land is so sought after.

Edited

Just a mild correction about why Jerusalem is important for Muslims -

Palestine has been the land of many, may Prophets, peace be upon them all - Abraham first migrated to PALESTINE, Lot was Palestinian as was David and his son Solomon, who lived and ruled from here.

The mihrab/prayer place of Prophet Zachary is here, and many miracles took place including the blessed birth of Jesus from his blessed mother Mary, and the attempt to crucify him.

Its ofcourse also the land where Moses brought his people, and where Talut triumphed over Goliath

Lastly, it was the first prayer direction for Muslims, which later changed to Makkah. The Prophet did not receive the Quran here, rather hes brought here and led all the Prophet's before him in prayer, cementing it as the holy place of all the Prophets of Islam.

Just some gen knowledge 😄

FishBowlSwimmer · 28/10/2023 15:29

To be fair though there has been conflict in that area for thousands of years between the three Abrahamic religions. 'The Rock' is THE holy place for all three religions. God created the world from that very spot. Abraham received the ten commandments there (I think that's right? Please correct me if I'm wrong), Jesus Christ went there and said something prophetic, and Muhammed also received the word of God in this spot.

Historians agree the first two temples built were Jewish, now it's Muslim. Wars have been fought over this holy site and this is why the land is so sought after.

FishBowlSwimmer · 28/10/2023 15:15

Dinkydaisy1 · 28/10/2023 15:13

"Israel is supposed to have been a solution to having nowhere safe to go"

This is what the problem is - it was built on forced, violent evacuations and displacement of a nation. They essentially did what was done to them. Palestinians paid the ultimate price for Europe's actions.

I completely agree, it was handled so badly and this is the outcome. It's awful for everyone involved.

Dinkydaisy1 · 28/10/2023 15:13

FishBowlSwimmer · 28/10/2023 15:11

It's a complex situation and there is fault on all sides. The Jewish community in Europe was decimated in WWII as we all know, but imagine how terrifying it was being systematically hunted down and not just murdered but caged and starved and abused and in most cases still murdered. You can't protect your children and you have nowhere safe to go.

Israel is supposed to have been a solution to having nowhere safe to go. From Israel's POV they can't allow Hama's controlled Gaza to become strong enough to destroy them. To some people, keeping them downtrodden and having control over their imports, fuel, water, etc. It keeps the Israeli people safer.

This is because Hama's will not allow Israel to survive, it wants the land back and all Jewish people dead or displaced.

Palestinian people suffer, they are controlled, denied and have no say over, well pretty much anything, they can't get rid of Hama's, they don't hold elections and they have little in the way of options.

How do you get two sides who can't even agree on each others right to survive to come to a mutually agreeable solution? Israel at least has said it is (was) open to a two state solution, Hama's point blank refuse to accept anything other than the complete destruction of Israel.

I have no answers and this is a very simplistic view of the conflict, it's much more nuanced in reality but that's the best explanation I can give without writing a book.

"Israel is supposed to have been a solution to having nowhere safe to go"

This is what the problem is - it was built on forced, violent evacuations and displacement of a nation. They essentially did what was done to them. Palestinians paid the ultimate price for Europe's actions.

FishBowlSwimmer · 28/10/2023 15:11

It's a complex situation and there is fault on all sides. The Jewish community in Europe was decimated in WWII as we all know, but imagine how terrifying it was being systematically hunted down and not just murdered but caged and starved and abused and in most cases still murdered. You can't protect your children and you have nowhere safe to go.

Israel is supposed to have been a solution to having nowhere safe to go. From Israel's POV they can't allow Hama's controlled Gaza to become strong enough to destroy them. To some people, keeping them downtrodden and having control over their imports, fuel, water, etc. It keeps the Israeli people safer.

This is because Hama's will not allow Israel to survive, it wants the land back and all Jewish people dead or displaced.

Palestinian people suffer, they are controlled, denied and have no say over, well pretty much anything, they can't get rid of Hama's, they don't hold elections and they have little in the way of options.

How do you get two sides who can't even agree on each others right to survive to come to a mutually agreeable solution? Israel at least has said it is (was) open to a two state solution, Hama's point blank refuse to accept anything other than the complete destruction of Israel.

I have no answers and this is a very simplistic view of the conflict, it's much more nuanced in reality but that's the best explanation I can give without writing a book.

Bloom15 · 28/10/2023 14:28

Dinkydaisy1 · 27/10/2023 14:17

Completely agree with you, @Autumnalvibesofmellowness

You probably won't get very far here -

Pick and choose what responses will be

But Hamas
But Israel has to defend itself
But Palestinians did this to themselves
But what about all the other occupations
But antisemitism

I agree with this - I have stopped trying to debate

Autumnalvibesofmellowness · 28/10/2023 14:14

SomeCatFromJapan · 28/10/2023 14:03

Tell me more. I'm terrified about many aspects of this. What scares you?

I can't speak for anyone else but I took from your words that you believe the Jewish community is making themselves undeserving of support. What form that will then take remains to be seen but given European history in the last 80 years, plus the sentiments being expressed freely on the streets and on the internet, this must be immensely worrying for the Jewish community.

I'm glad you explained as I do not think the Jewish community is undeserving of support and they have my support. What I find confusing, really and truly, is the relationship of the Jewish community globally to the citizens of Israel and the relationship of both to the Israeli government. Reading posts on Mumsnet, it often seems like the Jewish community feel victimised and the way to help them is to support the Israeli government's actions. Or not to criticise it at least. This is getting harder and harder to do. But it doesn't mean I don't want to support the Jewish community. It would be easier if Jewish people were able to accept that many of us can disagree with Israeli military action yet still oppose Hamas, care about what is happening to them and support the existence of Israel.

But I get the feeling that sympathies are being manipulated by powers other than Hamas and the Israeli government. The whole thing feels planned and exploitative.

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SomeCatFromJapan · 28/10/2023 14:03

Tell me more. I'm terrified about many aspects of this. What scares you?

I can't speak for anyone else but I took from your words that you believe the Jewish community is making themselves undeserving of support. What form that will then take remains to be seen but given European history in the last 80 years, plus the sentiments being expressed freely on the streets and on the internet, this must be immensely worrying for the Jewish community.

Autumnalvibesofmellowness · 28/10/2023 13:43

etmoietmoietmoi · 28/10/2023 10:07

I genuinely cannot see how we can support the Jewish community in the way they need and deserve if elements within the Jewish community are dehumanising another

The irony of your words here is quite spectacular. Several of your posts on here terrify me OP.

Tell me more. I'm terrified about many aspects of this. What scares you?

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etmoietmoietmoi · 28/10/2023 10:07

I genuinely cannot see how we can support the Jewish community in the way they need and deserve if elements within the Jewish community are dehumanising another

The irony of your words here is quite spectacular. Several of your posts on here terrify me OP.

earlyr1ser · 28/10/2023 09:35

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

You might as well have done. Pinning collective responsibility on "the Jewish community" for the murder of innocents has been going on since mediaeval times. If I were a Jew I would be very relieved that I don't need your help or support.

Autumnalvibesofmellowness · 28/10/2023 08:48

We also saw huge international outrage when large parts of Syria were being levelled, albeit by it's own regime.

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Autumnalvibesofmellowness · 28/10/2023 08:44

duchiebun · 28/10/2023 00:11

I won’t pretend the US and the UK haven’t committed war crimes of course they have, but that doesn’t mean that Israel gets to tear up the Geneva Convention and we have to look on a say ah well, our governments aren’t perfect either.

My point was the different standards & you can’t ignore UK foreign policy re terrorism which means we stand with the US.

Are you familiar with what happened on Bloody Sunday and what the aftermath has been?

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